28. Why Everything You've Been Taught about Emergency Funds is Wrong

In this episode, we’re talking about why emergency funds do our head in. Not the actual emergency fund, because that’s a good thing. No! What ‘experts’ tell you about them.  

It all started with a puddle in Julie’s car which a few years ago would have been financial meltdown. Instead it took 30 minutes of emotional reckoning. 

This episode is to get you on the path to needing 30 minutes to process the emergency, rather than having sleepless nights and added stress.

We will talk about the 2 main factors influencing your ability to build a "puddle" fund - the practical stuff, and how your thinking might be getting in your way.

Three practical tips:

1. Ignore the conventional wisdom of 3-6 months expenses
2. Save a small weekly amount that feels comfortable and use roundups
3. Then review what you’ve been saving after a few months, and if you can, increase it a little bit.

03.47 Why we needed to talk to you about emergency funds

05.52 What the ‘experts’ say and our issue with it

07.15 If you don’t have one, what you might be thinking (it’s what we thought)

08.37 The 2 things we want you know about building an emergency fund

09.33 Catherine has a soapbox moment about what you call it (hint, she doesn’t like the word emergency)

12.00 The practical steps to building financial resilience, our 3 tips, plus Catherine’s bonus one

20.06 The emotions that get in the way of us building financial resilience 

25.45 Let’s figure out your REAL number, not the text book 3 – 6 months

SPECIAL REQUEST:  reviews helps us reach other women. If you enjoyed the show please leave a review.

YOUR HOSTS:
Catherine Thomas-Humphreys is an Award Wining Financial Coach, Qualified Financial Adviser and Family Will Writer. Catherine believes money is a force for good and when in the hands of good people can be used to do great things.  She loves working with purpose-led parents who are ready to change  their money habits & beliefs to achieve  financial success for themselves and their family.

The Finfluencer|Instagram

Julie Flynn is an experienced independent financial adviser and financial coach. Justice and equality drive Julie. Which is why she’s spent years studying and researching how stress affects our financial decision making.

Julie is best known for her work with women who have lost their partner and coaching financial services business who want to implement fair and transparent charges.

Ebb & Flow Financial Coaching|Bree Wealth & Tax|Instagram

Transcript

WMC 28 Everything you've been told about emergency funds is wrong

Welcome [00:01:00] back to the women in many cafe podcast and on the sofa this week it's myself, Catherine, and my co-host, Julie, and we're talking all things emergency fund. So really, we're here to challenge some of the myths around how much your emergency fund should be. How many months income you should have, what you should call it and turn this into some practical and emotional steps that you can take to build up the right fund for you to use at the right time on the right things so that you have the financial resilience.

To cope with any curve balls that life throws at you

Julie: Some of you may know I had a car problem a month or so ago? I woke up one morning. I went to go to work and there was a puddle in my car, but it was only a little puddle. So I thought I'll be fine. It wasn't fine at all. Cause the puddle got bigger [00:02:00] and my car had to be rescued by BMW.

So yeah, this, this was a problem. So it was that day as well, where we had all the rain. It was horrible. It was a horrible day BMW are quoting me thousands of pounds to fix it. Stressed out my head as well, I was on my way to work so I'd have to cancel that appointment as well. So I go back home, I'm all wet and I'm fed up and I'm miserable.

And I'm sitting there anticipating this huge bill. And then I had to get myself a little talking to, like I said, okay. Worst case scenario that you just have to get a new car. Now, at this point in time, it was looking like a ten-thousand-pound problem to fix. Fortunately for me, it turned out, it was only a thousand phone problem to fix, but it got me thinking about emergency funds, why they really do my head and I'm in a really grateful I had one.

 but I [00:03:00] think as a financial profession, the way we talk about them, does people a disservice. So Catherine and I are here to chat emergency funds with you today. 

Catherine: Although I am firstly amused that you saw a puddle in your car and thought that would be okay. 

Julie:

It was only a little one.

, 

and I wanted to see my clients, I set off to Ardrossan and I didn't get there. 

Catherine: I think it's like you hear a noise in your car when you turn the radio up and drive faster that I'm in denial. So I actually remember this happening. And I also remember the threat of the 10,000-pound potential costs. So thousand is significantly better. what went through your head when, when you thought it might be 10,000 pounds? Well, 

Julie: I remember, so I spent about half an hour emotionally reconciling myself [00:04:00] to the fact that. Because it shot through all the electrics because water and electrics, they're not friends. So it was about emotionally reconciling myself to the fact you're going to need to suck this up.

And aren't you lucky that you've got the money there to be able to fix this problem,

but it was a conflict. I think part of the conflict came from, I was really aware that there are times gone by where this would have been a catastrophe for me and my finances. So however stressed and wet and soggy, I was, it could have been a hell of a lot worse. And I thought, well, we need to talk about this because I can remember how stressful that could, that has been something unexpected happens and you don't have the financial means to deal with that.

It's adding a whole layer of stress that you don't need. I don't know. What do you, I suspect you're going to agree with me, Catherine? So all those little [00:05:00] financial advisor people, we go off to financial advice school and they teach us stuff and it's all in books. If the book says it, it must be so, so the book says that we must advise people to have between three- and six-months expenses put aside.

And personally, I think that is so unhelpful. As sort of a broad rule, what your thoughts, Catherine? 

Catherine: I'm with you. It's Unhelpful. Yes. Your example demonstrates why it's important to, to be in a position to build up the cash savings. And like, you there've been many times in my life where something has come up as something unexpected and there hasn't been the money in the bank.

So, I don't think we're talking from a position where it's always been there, but I think it becomes unhelpful because it feels unachievable. So if someone says we need, let's say six months and 10,000 pounds is quite a common number. We see banded around 10,000-pound cash. [00:06:00] And we don't have anything, but we have a very small amount.

How can we ever believe that we're going to get to a position of doing that whilst also living whilst also doing all the things we do every day? So I think the main issue for me is. Because it's a set-in stone number or a fix out of the box. If you like out of the book, it's not connecting, it's not relatable for us.

And it doesn't feel like it's an achievable number in the first place. and then secondly, is it even the right number? We talk about financial advice, getting to know, you, your situation and tailoring it for you. And then we come out with a out of the book. Here's the same answer every single time in every single report.

So I think it's wrong for those two reasons, but I do think having some form of cash savings to dip into and use, they're not just there to sit there.  [00:07:00] Exactly. Like you've described, a mine is my anxiety that the boiler's going, because it's got a big red scary label on it.

And one day it's going to go. So yeah, needed there, but not necessarily in the prescriptive way that we put out. 

Julie: Yeah. And I think back to what I was like in my twenties and thirties and the thought of having thousands of pounds just sitting in the bank, doing nothing, conceptually, I couldn't get my head round this the money I had when I was in my twenties and thirties was for paying the bills and living on and having fun.

I just didn't get the idea of having money, just sitting in the bank, doing nothing, and certainly not thousands of pounds, 

Catherine: think when I was in my twenties, there wasn't enough to put into the bank, but you're right. It feels like I would have to give up something today for the vague, likelihood or some distant possibility that I might need it in the future.

So it is actually feels when you're making a financial decision a little bit [00:08:00] like a loss. I can't have this today. I've got to put this aside, but I don't really believe tangibly that that is also something. So I think bridging that gap slightly, helps to understand that that isn't just sitting there.

 it's not opposite to spending it's the other side of the same coin. and I think it's harder. It's much harder, I've been in both positions. It's much harder when you are having to make choices about how you're living today versus some possibility of a do tomorrow. 

Julie: Absolutely. So I think what I think what we'd like to do over the next 20 minutes or so is we think there's two aspects to this whole emergency fund, whatever you want to call it, Catherine, we'll have a discussion in a minute about what you want to call it, but there's two aspects to it.

There's the practical side. And how do we overcome the challenges there? So if you've got people like that telling you, you need thousands of pounds in the bank, you look at that. and think that’s achievable unobtainable. Why even [00:09:00] try, you're going to talk about the practical steps that you can take to start building and some finance, financial resistance into your life.

Then the second. As because it's because it's been Catherine, we can look at emotional side now. Seriously. What I mean by that is the way you think and what you believe about money is potentially much bigger barrier to you being financially secure than the practical tips that we're going to give here. So we're going to cover that off.

I think first of all, Catherine would like little soapbox to talk about why it's called an emergency fund. 

Catherine: Oh, do you Catherine, so books. So I think it touches on the emotional side. I think there's an awful lot in and around. And this came from my own personal thing, but I don't want an emergency. So therefore I don't want an emergency fund.

, and I think sometimes we see another word it's not the same, sinking funds, not quite the same purpose, but again, it just makes me feel physically like I'm [00:10:00] sinking. Why would I want, but anything into something that's sinking or an emergency? So for me, I've got a cushion. Um, just about handler being an emergency cushion, but it's a cushion, it's a softness, it's a bit of space.

It's something for me. That's positive that it's going to help. Um, I think you did some research on what other people were calling that 

Julie: I've got. Most of mine is now known as the puddle. From personal experience, I've heard people call it the oh bleep fund and appropriate swear. But my absolute favourite though comes from Mary having way.

There's a friend of ours. She calls it the Armageddon fund, but still inspired after Mary Tobin. Styling space called Armageddon. I use a photo from the film, 

Catherine: well, rainy day fund. The thing's quite common as well. That's 

Julie: what my grandma before that. 

Catherine: Yeah, not dissimilar, but again, I think it's language, isn't it?

So I would struggle if it was something do me. Cause that [00:11:00] feels, I already have fear around money. And even though. I'm not where I was. Um, I w I'm going to be honest that sometimes I will feel fear before approaching money, even now, based on the experience of having had none and having had days where I was actually quite terrified, who am I paying today?

So fear with. And money. Are they their relationship? That's still gradually on clearing unwinding. So you don't want 

Julie: to use the apocalyptic language around your money? 

Catherine: No, I need to use I'm safe. I'm comfortable. We're useful. We're impactful. So for me, the language has to be something around that. Um, so I would say, start with this, start with a name that works for you.

Um, and then I did like what you said earlier though. Word financial resilience, um, which is a slight kickback to the practical. So I'm mindful, I'm throwing this into a tangent, so I'm going to pass back 

Julie: to you. [00:12:00] All right. So let's work through some practical tips. So if you're listening to us right now, and you're like, yes, that Six-month figure, never going to happen.

So maybe, yeah, maybe you don't have much. Maybe you don't have anything. Okay. What we're going to do is share with you some ideas, things that will help you. These are tried and tested. Okay. So this is some of what I'm going to share with you is actually what I've done to help me get where I am, where I can, I can afford.

I can afford. I don't like a 10,000 problem. I can afford to 10,000 problems. Oh, so the first thing is to sit down and have a think about how much could you afford not to spend each month that you would not notice or each week even. So even if that's just 10 pounds. Okay. But we want you to do is pause. Go and get you back and can apple set up a separate little account space, whatever, [00:13:00] or maybe you've got an actual jar because stick 10 pound or something or whatever the number is for you, because what we've learned.

Catherine and I both personally and through years, I mean like years of working with people, and this is it's doing somethings better than nothing. And when you start, when you start, you're like, yes, 10 pounds. That's not going to do anything. Oh, you're going to be so amazed at what this can do. So that's the first step is start putting aside a little bit each week.

Catherine: And I think just, you know, the ground less fun is make that automated and make it so it's easy for yourself and there's as little resistance to that habit building up as possible. 

Julie: Yeah. So ultimately you can easily either use standard orders, all of this, a variety, a little savings up. So there as well.

I know we keep referring to these, we're going to do another episode and we're going to summarize all the apps that we've ever mentioned. 

Catherine: Yeah. And the thing that [00:14:00] ties in as she was your other suggestion, and this is how I got this idea around. Hmm. I'd want to talk a little bit about that. This is a 

Julie: room.

This is something that just about all the banks do. Now. I'm going to get out the guests, all of them do because even what I used to bank the Lloyds, the data. So you can go and there'll be a setting where you can round up your spending. So let's see, I've gone to Costa coffee, and I spent five grand 35.

Okay. So if I find that if I was coming up okay, and it's going to cost a coffee and 65 pants, cause it's rounding up, is going to get moved into my puddle fund. Once you go into the hand of Dennis and the habit, and it's feeling comfortable, you can boost your roundups. You can, you can double them sometimes, or you can check for them.

So yeah. Supercharger a little bit, but these, these are two really easy things to do that are automated and they're dealing with reasonably small amounts, or you can determine how, how small it is. So it [00:15:00] feels it's not impacting you on a day-to-day basis. 

Catherine: Yeah, I like that. And what I did was take that approach.

But apply it with my own outgoings. So I was trying to reach this heavy Heights of three to six months of, um, goings. So the way my husband and I work house is we have a joint account. The joint account is where all the bills come from. So we just rounded up everybody. So the electric got rounded up to a hundred or 500 and by rounding them up every month we had what we put in.

So we were always putting slightly more in, and then at the end of a period of time, we would take that cushion and put that over it aside until we got that. Um, and I think what that's doing is that's you get used to not having the, the electric.

make that one up and then you just get used to not having that little bit extra as well. Um, it’s outside out of mind [00:16:00] and after a period of time and it takes time, there's no rush to, you're not, unless something significant changes in your income. It's not going to be a magic switch that this certainly three to six months or 10,000 pounds in cash that prepared for it to take time, be willing for it to take time.

Um, and the roundups and the automation. Plus time for you to get there. Yeah. And I 

Julie: think it's setting yourself small many goals, so it's breaking it down. So if it would be an achievement to have 50 pounds set aside, then work towards that and then just move, keep moving that goal a little bit further in small increments, not being able to put aside thousands of pounds right now does not make you a financial failure.

Nor does it mean that financial securities unobtainable to you?

That's how Catherine and I got to where we are. It's taking those very small four steps and keep on taking them. 

Catherine: Yeah, I think it starts with a belief. [00:17:00] Doesn't it? So it's a decision to do it in a belief that it's achievable when we don't think it's going to happen. It's much harder to, to continue with the little behaviours, those small habits that get you that.

Um, so I think if you can just take away from today. That if you decide to do this and take small actions, it will happen. And therefore that's going to help on the days where it's doing Roundup or do I need to spend over here when you're having to make the real choices on, am I saving or am I spending, so I would say you just believe it can happen.

Don't be knocked by the rhetoric and the language that it's a big scare, a number, and you'll never going to achieve it. So if you can just switch the belief in the first. And then follow the small habits. It will happen. 

Julie: All right. So I think that's our three practical tips then are ignore the three to six months ago.

Right? Ignore it. Bin that one, m, start automating some weekly, saving a small amount that [00:18:00]feels affordable and comfortable use roundups in your bank app. And then every so often just review what you, what you're saving. And if you increase that a little bit, do so. 

Catherine: I think you might just do one more.

Cool.

I think we hear this from, from people is that I've saved that. And then something came along, and I needed to use it. I made it back in. And then it does a bit like a reset and restart. So firstly, I would say that unless it's for the emergency stroke, Armageddon, puddle, rain, and day that you have set aside for, then you're not to use that.

But if it is a rainy day or an emergency. That's what it's there for. So it's not resetting, it's done its job. And then you just carry on with exactly the same habits you'd already be gone before. 

Julie: Yeah. You have to go through that half hour that I had emotionally reconciling 

Catherine: yourself, psyching up to [00:19:00] actually use it for the purpose that you've set aside 

Julie: for to use it.

And then again, it's like, what I did is I reflected on how that experience would have been different in the past. And my solution in the past would have been a credit card if it was possible to solve, even with the credit card. It would have been dead either way. So once you, if you find yourself using your emergency fund, just sit there and take some time to reflect on how that would have felt if you didn't have that money there.

Catherine: I really like that. Actually, sometimes we forget don't we that it could have been different, but that's exactly what it's there for. Imagining the other side is going to help you continue dressing up to avoid bigger ones in the future. 

Julie: Yeah, it was the difference between me half and a half an hour of feeling a little bit perturbed and uncomfortable having nights messing sleep at night and stress.

And when I go to bed thinking, how the hell am I going to get around with that car? [00:20:00] I'm going to get car and that's would have gone on for however long. Yeah. So I think, I think this brought us nicely around to the emotional side doesn't to Catherine. It did it did. Right. Talk to us about beliefs and emergency funds.

Catherine, 

Catherine: think I just alluded to it a little bit earlier that it starts from a belief. So instead of starting from the end point, which is you need to above a pound start, some believing that you can know if you're still, I like to spend the moment just in what resistance we get to that. So whenever we create a new belief, it's not immediately going to happen for everyone.

So as you write down, I'm going to come back to the wall tips in a minute. Well, maybe your number might be what comes up. What's the inner world for you? What's the feelings or the thoughts around it? Is it? I can't do it. Um, is it that, um, I'm afraid to look, is it that I just, um, [00:21:00] can't have this conversation with my partner?

What's your resistance? Cause yours will be different to mine and to the next person, but if you can pick up and tune into what. Barriers, you're creative for yourself in the first place, those thoughts and feelings, then we can start to look at well, how can we do something about. Um, so I would start with good old Henry Ford.

Isn't it? But you believe you can't. I believe you can. You're right. And start with being right on the positive side.

Well, we have a lot of fun running the cafe. The reason we do it is to reach as many women as possible to empower them around. So if you know, a woman that would benefit from feeling financially empowered, you can help us to help them by sharing this episode with them.

Julie: Yeah. I think that was, I think, a sticking point for the occupant. Unobtainable. And then, and if that's yours as [00:22:00] Catherine suggestion, just take some time to think about what else comes up when you think that I'm all for baring my soul in the cafe. I think everybody knows that. So I'm going to own up to what I told Catherine before we started recording, but one of the things.

Not all of them. It was funny because the car broke down and it really got me thinking about me having this cash available. And something struck me. that have been a barrier to me building this financial resilience that I didn't realize. And when I look back, because I've been capable of putting money aside for emergencies for a long time, but it's only the last couple of years, I actually bothered to do it.

And one of the things that was stopped me. So I had the financial means, but there was a belief that I didn't deserve the security that that would bring. 

Catherine: I find that. I mean, when you shared that earlier, my question is when did you [00:23:00]become aware of that? Because that's a massive awareness of, we're not, we know we talk each week that money isn't about numbers.

It's about how we feel about ourselves and often echoes what our feelings are, but to actually get to that realization takes longer. So you didn't realize this until you'd actually begun the saving. Did it, so how did you see it getting in the way of you creating that savings? Once you began. 

Julie: Right.

Let's see, this is why the first few tips we gave us. So kick-ass because they overruled the belief. So I started doing the little savings a couple of years ago and it got, I got the habit going and it was building evidence that I could do this. So there goes the, this is unattainable belief because I'm doing it.

And yeah, I started off just smaller. I think, you know, the first time I had a hundred pound just sitting in Chip. I was like, Ooh, check me out. And then there's 500 pounds. And then I'm like, wow. So [00:24:00] that was debunking the this is unobtainable. And it was the habit, and it was not hooked on the habit. I was like, oh, this is kind of fun.

Look at me doing something. I thought I couldn't do. I know I'm not adulting as Michelle calls it, but it was only when I had that half hour of reflection as it was trying to get dry and warm that I realized that one of the things that stopped me doing that earlier was belief that I didn't the security that it brought.

Catherine: So I think if anyone else is feeling that that's a really key thing to pick up that we all do deserve. Why would any of us not deserve to be safe with our money? so going back to when you start this and you're taking a few minutes to look at what your resistance, not the clothes are, see whether that's something that comes up to you because you're not alone.

And Julie was extremely honest, but I had to have to put my hand up to not feeling that I deserve the [00:25:00] money. I think I overrode mine by. Well, I can't take for me. I can give to my children and my family. So it's like, I can put my own feelings aside to do something good for someone else and good. I use the inverted commerce, but I phone much that I was doing that.

I've done it. If I was single that's the question finance is probably would have been a lot harder 

Julie: Kevin's hope and we never found out you’re listing. Kevin, I'll keep, I'll keep you posted.

Okay. So we've covered some practical tips there on how to start, and we've also covered some of the beliefs and the emotions that might sabotage you along the way. All right, for this last little bit, Catherine, shall we talk about how to figure out the number? So let's say you've got some momentum going, you've got the habits you've got the beliefs is then the practical.

Well, how much do I actually need? Because what we don't want is people sitting with hundreds of [00:26:00] thousands of parents in cash, because that's stupid. We don't do that. Nope. 

Catherine: No. So, we've got a couple of ways of doing this. So one of us is the, what if game. I love this. Can we play fun? Isn't it? So it's sitting down, whether you're single, whether you got partner, um, and actually working out, what if something happened?

You know, what are your big risks for you and your family? Is it your car like Julie or boiler might meet with my red sticker on which if anybody's working from the gas board, they asked me about, um, or is it, do you have children? Do you not have children? I am. I highly reliant on one income or two.

So by playing the, what if game is you kind of trying to work out what's your big risks and risks? Cause it will be plural. And what does that translate to in an emergency number for you? So, Julie, what if we know what if, if your car breaks down, um, so if you were to think [00:27:00] about a scenario in your life changing, what, what would cause you a concern?

What would make you think you needed to dip into Armageddon? All the 

Julie: cushion? Um, I'm trying to think. Me not being able to vote. Of ill-health, isn't a concern because I have insurance in place for that. So that's not a worry. Yeah. I've been a little bit worried about my roof. If I'm honest, I can't believe I tell you about this.

Right. So last year, no last spring had that little note. Largely quite also in the loft. So Brian came down, went up and loft and did something. I don't know why it looked like a disco go up there. And as girls were gone, this spoon, I've heard the noise again. And I can't figure out if they're on the outside of the house or if they're actually in the lock and what her phone does, this YouTube video, that's got special music on.

[00:28:00] So I put the scribble music on in the morning when I can hear them and then they disappear. But I'm thinking. This is probably not a long-term solution. This is probably the equivalent of getting into currency in the puddle and thinking. So gives a really long-winded answer. Yeah, I'm worried about my riff 

Catherine: okay.

Forests. Um, I, I was worried not about. Not being able to work, but the way that I structured my insurance to make it affordable at the time, because I have to not be working for it to third period of time, which I can't actually remember that looking at bank work, but it's three months or six months. So for me, that was the cushion plus a boiler, but I was trying to fill, so now I've got a number, so I know what my income is, what would be missing.

Got a rough idea, what the boiler is and put them together. And that gives me my amount for the emergency fund. I don't know what I was costs. I 

Julie: said, if there's any lifts, those that knows anything. appreciate. No, my answer was completely [00:29:00] unhelpful.

Catherine: Yeah. I guess other waters for people could be, what if the car breaks down or the boiler breaks down? What if someone in the family is able to work? Um, if for example, um, maybe the children need something for something that they're very passionate about. And we know the activities for children. I don't wear hats.

You know, that's not an emergency or it's not more of 

Julie: a 

Catherine: planned expenditure. So the emergency is the unforeseen. What if isn't it 

Julie: is for those oh shit moments. 

Catherine: Right. Anyone who's listening. Just sit down and imagine your last oh, shit moment. Cause I'm sure we've all had one. What was your oh, shit moment.

And what if that happened again? 

Julie: Yeah. 

Catherine: And I think that would give you quite a realistic, sensible and really [00:30:00] plausible. There's a big word for me in the morning, plausible, um, scenario that you know can happen and you probably got an idea of the cost of it and it's that prepared for? And that's your emergency fund.

Julie: That's coming back to me now. Okay, so then no, I think it was it last January. Like the washing machine, it was made funny noises, boasted 11 room. I thought, oh, that's an even stranger noise. I know that's not right. So like needing a new washing machine, washing machines. So, and they do, they do seem, I've been through a lot of Washington.

They used to now sit there and ask yourself what stuff around the house could conceivably sort of give up. And you're going to need to replace that. 

Catherine: And I think it is the impact of it. Isn't it, without a car, without a boiler, without washing machine every day, family life is extremely hard? I can make you wait for the [00:31:00] perfect conservatory.

Also, you know, the other items, but it's what if something goes on, that's going to affect your actual monthly day-to-day life. So income stopping in key items, breaking the quick wrecking on the cost of that. And that gives you. Your reasonable emergency savings gone, 

Julie: right? That's not. So the fact that we've put on people, I think there's somebody that was Catherine's move by car, but I'm not, no, it's 

Catherine: not broken down 

Julie: then.

So we've given you some practical hints and tips on how to get started. Like automate stuff. Start with small goals, ignore the three to six months. Figure, 

Catherine: pick your own finger, your 

Julie: real figure. Yeah. And Catherine's given you, you can go play Catherine's wife game. If you're playing the game, we would love to hear what your, what ifs, especially if they're entertaining to do, let us know,

be prepared certain, take a little bit of time and think [00:32:00] about what thoughts you have that may be getting in your way of being able to do this. So we hope this has been helpful. Um, as always, we love hearing from you, especially if you played in the afternoon and if you've had successes in building your emergency fund, we'd love to hear that too, but for now that's all from us.

So, Catherine, thank you. 

Catherine: Thank you, Julie. Thank you everyone. Thank you for listening to the women and many cafe, Julie Flynn and myself, Catherine Thomas. Well, we have a lot of fun run in the cafe. The reason we do this is to reach as many women as possible to empower them in and around money. So if you know a woman that would benefit from feeling financially empowered, you can help us to help them by sharing the show.

There's nothing we love more than hearing about the changes you've made. So please drop us a voice note. At hello@womenandmoney.cafe. We'd love to hear from you. You've just been listening to our financial chat, but please know that none of this [00:33:00] constitutes personal financial advice, please reach out to one of us or any of the other fantastic financial advisors in the UK for this kind of specific help.