34. When do you want to retire and how much do you need? Is the wrong question...

When you think of retirement planning, the first thing that pops into your head may be pensions, numbers, money... there's another commodity that is critical to having a successful retirement - Time. And that requires a lot of mental preparation to figure out how to spend it.

In this episode we will be sharing our observations and tips. Because the earlier we start thinking differently about retirement, the sooner it can happen. 

3.35 The standard question every adviser asks, and no client really knows how to answer (possibly it's the wrong question)
7.48 A cautionary tale on why you need to think about what you are going to do, rather than how much money you need
10.11 You could be in retirement for 30 -40 years, you need a plan!
12.18 Making a list of attributes you've seen in people who have retired "well"
14.28 Your sense of identity & how golf can lead to antidepressants
17.25 Knowing why you go to work, can help you prepare for not going
18.11 How being prepared makes it happen sooner
23.51 A retirement plan with substance
31.11 Couples, you need to talk! Or you could be in for a surprise

Resources:
Mitch Anthony produced a series of tools for his Return on Life Retirement Coaching programme:

• Retirement observation - good conversation starter
• Retirement worksheet - helps identify gaps left by retiring
• Retirementality profile - understand how you want to spend your time
• Return on life index  - how and where to use your money to get the best return on life
• Visioning tool - how you want your future to look

Message Julie if you would like these. Due to copyright we can't link directly.
___________________________________________________________________
YOUR HOSTS:
Julie Flynn is an experienced independent financial adviser and financial coach. Justice and equality drive Julie. Which is why she’s spent years studying and researching how stress affects our financial decision making.

She uses her years of experience and research to support women experiencing or planning significant change in their lives. 

Julie is best known for her work with women who have lost their partner and coaching financial services business who want to implement fair and transparent charges.

Financial coaching - Ebb & Flow Financial Coaching
Financial advice - Bree Wealth & Tax
Julie’s inexpert social media antics - Instagram

Michelle Lambell  started her career in financial services as a Stockbroker in 1999 undertaking both advisory and discretionary investment management. Following a career break where she spent time being a mum and running an arts and crafts business, Michelle returned to financial services in 2013 undertaking further study.

Today she is a Chartered Financial Planner, specialising in retirement planning advice, pensions and investments and a Certified Financial Coach. Michelle has a passion for providing financial advice, guidance and education to everyone, regardless of their gender, age or current circumstances.
Website | Instagram

Transcript

Julie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the women and money cafe, the weekly money podcast for women by women exploring the practical and emotional side of money. The cafe isn't just a podcast. It's a community for women to feel financially empowered and have. Fun along the way. So come and join us in our Facebook group. Your hosts are Julie fly and Katherine Thomas Humphreys, myself.

I'm an independent financial advisor and certified financial coach. And I work with women where life is taken an unexpected turn to help them manage their money with confidence and envisage a new future. Catherine is the founder of the fininfluencer. She a qualified advisor and financial coach and family finance expert.

She helps parents to financially empower their family and create positive relationships with money. Themselves and those fell off.[00:01:00]

Okay. So we've done a number of episodes on pensions and some of them have covered off some of the technical stuff, but today we've got something a little bit different for you. And we calling it the coachy one because when people think about retirement, I'm pretty sure the first thing that pops into your head is pensions and saving money and numbers.

And what have you. And really, if we're honest, this is the last step in the process, because if we think about planning for retirement and we're focusing on the money, I think we're doing that the wrong way around because the commodity that you're really spending in retirement is time. It's not money it's time.

And so to understand, and to figure out how you want to use that time. That takes a lot of preparation and a lot of thought. So what we're going to do is share with you, just some of the, the observations we've made, having helped loads of people retire already. The things that we know work well and the things that are [00:02:00] less.

Successful. And just some questions to get you thinking about how do you want to be thinking about retirement, even if it's a long time off, if you start having these thoughts now, and just sort of question yourself about what you want, you might find that by doing that, what you're doing is you're going to make it happen sooner for yourself. So hopefully you'll enjoy this episode and it'll get you thinking about retirement differently

Michelle: today. We're having a discussion about pensions and probably the coaching aspect of pensions, which is something we do. But clients may not really realize we're doing it as part of our process. Would you agree, Julie? 

Julie: Yeah. Well it's, if we should be doing it, I know that you and I are doing. But if your adviser is not doing it after listening to this, you can give them a prompt that I would like some of that 

stuff, please.

Michelle: Definitely. And it's so important because even though when you're dealing with a client with your [00:03:00] pensions and an advisor and they ask you all these questions, they do, it's really important for the advisor to understand why you're giving the responses you're giving and also for you to understand it.

But, uh, you've gotta have that conversation. And as we always say, one of the big questions we asked and Julie. How much income do you want in retirement? And you see everyone sort of look like a rabbit in the headlights? 

Julie: Yeah. Like, so people you've just got myself Michelle today because I'm gonna say really contentious things.

And I didn't want Catherine here to give me the trouble or disagree with me. that's still true. Now. So standard question that you maybe asked yourself and your advisor has definitely asked you, is when would you like to retire and how much money would you like? And I think going back it's over five years ago now I was on my way to a client's house, Michelle, and it was to talk about retirement plan.

And on the way there, I was listening to a podcast with Mitch Anthony. And [00:04:00] by the time I got to the client's house, how I decided to do the conversation was completely different to how I thought it was going to do it. Cause I thought, oh my. I'm gonna do a rubbish job for my clients. If I do it the way I've always done it, because I'm sure you'll have, there'll be regional variations.

So for everybody listening, I'm in Scotland and I've also worked in the Northwest of England. Okay. The standard answer, I get to that question when and how much is going to be somewhere in the range of between 60 and 65. That's when they would like to retire and they want 2000 pound a month net. That's the answer that if you, if you sampled everybody I've ever spoken to about this, that's the average answer I get and it'll be, this you'll have a regional variation, but they it's, it's alarming.

They all came out with the same number and that these are really different people. How come they want the same amount? Like, I'm not asking the right questions. . 

Michelle: Yeah. And I think, as you say, we've got sort of regional variations. The age, I think is very similar. So I am in [00:05:00] the sort of Southwest of England.

So ages is generally 60 to 65, or I've actually had a few now who just go, it'll be to state pension age. It'll be, you know, I'll be working to state pension age, but I would say the income's a little bit more net, probably two and a half to 3000, but that's probably, as you say, you know, regional variations that we have.

But again, when you ask that question, why? That's when the silence comes, I find, 

Julie: yeah. Yeah. And it's, I think this is why we wanted to have this conversation with you guys today is because even if you are not planning on retiring the earlier you start thinking about it differently, then the sooner you can probably achieve what you want to.

I don't know. What do you think Michelle? 

Michelle: Oh, definitely. Definitely. And I think I've got clients who I work with who are in their thirties and forties. And I ask them the question because they've often come to me and they've got lots of pensions from lots of different jobs and they [00:06:00] just say to me, I just want them brought together.

I want them in one pension fund. That's all I want. And I go, okay, but we're doing that because that's for your retirement. Yes. Okay. So we need to think about what you need that to provide in retirement, because you know, how, how it's invested, what we do with it, whether you add to it, it all sort of factors in, and you sort of look at someone in their thirties and forties and say, so what's that number?

How much do you need? And they did they, well, how would I know. I understand that. So I think for many people in that sort of age group, we start with a, okay, let's look at your expenditure, but let's just take out maybe your mortgage let's take out any debt because that's likely to have been paid off by then.

And it just gives you a starting point and it's never going to be that. And it's one of those things, isn't it? You can plan. Hm, it will change, but just gives you a starting point and then you see the cogs sort of starting to turn in their heads as to how that might look. 

Julie: Yeah. And I [00:07:00] think it's just, it's, 

it's such a dramatic change in lifestyle.

Yeah. That it, it warrants some thought beforehand. Ideally sort of mental preparation for, for what's for this change, that's going to happen. There's like you said, everybody thinks like what's your number. You see this banded around all the time. What's the number. And we were chat before working and I was like, well, the number that's just a bit that gets bolted on at the end, it's the figuring out?

What do you want? I think we feel this is a really important conversation you need to have with yourself or with your partner, because the implications of not having the conversation or not putting the mental preparation and it's not good as a, so Michelle, you've got a story haven't you

Michelle: so, yes. So I have, some people that I know, and they were thinking of preparing for retirement and talking about the things they'd like to do.

And I think a few people have said to them, well, [00:08:00] what do you want to do in retirement? You know, I think he, he is a golfer. She sort of does other stuff, but this conversation turned into something completely different. So what started as a, when do we want to retire and what do we want to do together?

Actually ended up in a, we have no shared interests. We don't spend any time together and actually we're gonna get divorced. 

Hmm. 

So that was a very big, you know, conversation to have from people that from the outside were very happily married. Mm-hmm . But actually their lives were just very independent.

They both had their jobs, they loved and, but they didn't actually spend that much time together. So I think the thought of spending time together, I think in, in one of them's words were we didn't actually like each other that much, we just rubbed along together. And if they hadn't have had that conversation, that would've then happened in retirement, which makes things even harder for them both.

I think. 

Julie: Yeah, no. And I was like, I've got [00:09:00] just from the people that I've worked with. So I was telling Michelle about this a minute ago. So I've got this client, he is in a relationship, but they're not married. And they do all the finances separate, and I'm not her advisor. And he was coming up to retirement and I was like, okay, so what, what you looking forward to?

What does it look like? I was like, well, I wanna move to the world cuz I can get a bigger garden and blah, blah, blah. I was like, all right. How does Claire feel about moving to the wirral? oh, I have no idea. they live in Liverpool and I know, I can tell you that the Wirral and Liverpool are like different countries so duly went off and had the conversation with his partner turned out.

She was not fussed on moving to the wirral, but they had that conversation beforehand. Rather than him spending ages, like imagining this retirement on the wirral, that's not gonna happen. So I think it's about having that conversation so that we can avoid these situations. So I think what Michelle and I are going do is we're gonna talk you through some of the questions that we, we ask clients and the suggestions that we [00:10:00] throw out to help you sort of start mentally preparing and engaging with what it looked like for you.

So, Michelle, what's one of your favorite things to do with clients in this area. 

Michelle: so one of them is also, you know, which is linked along with the number is okay, your health, how's your health and you know, how long do you think you're gonna be retired for? And I can't tell you how many times someone says to me, I won't live that long, so I'm gonna enjoy all my money now.

And then you say, how do you know that? And, oh, well, so and so didn't live very long and they didn't, but it does really make them start to think, actually I could be in retirement for 30 to 40 years, but you need to ask those questions to get to that point. 

Julie: Hmm. So that's actually something I, I come across quite a lot as well.

It seems to be that anybody that works with a financial advisor, all convinced to have a shortened life expectancy. I don't know if the two things are linked 

Michelle: but it's a 

Julie: perception. [00:11:00] There's a, I suspect studies will show it's the opposite. How do you help people get over that mindset? 

Michelle: Well, I think we look at, you know, so you can look at the office of national statistics, what the average, you know, life expectancy is.

Yes, you can look at members of their family. So we often have conversations, not just about that one person in their family that something may have happened to, but actually let's look at other people. In the family and also, you know, it's about actually enjoyment of life and all those things you want to plan out.

And actually you are probably cutting off 10, 20 years of when you could be doing things. So I think it does sort of make them sort of start to think, actually, no, I probably will, you know, live longer. And actually I'd like to prepare for living longer. We don't ever know what's around the corner fully, but actually let's prepare for that.

And you've got something to look forward to and let's cross the [00:12:00] bridges when we do. Yeah. And 

Julie: what I like about that is because when we think about retirement planning, I think the first thing that pops into everybody's head is shove money in a pension. And that's the preparation done? Well, that's the money prepared, but it's about preparing yourself mentally preparing yourself physically and health wise.

 so I know one of the things that I will do with, I've got a few things that I'll do with clients, One of the things I like to do is ask them, do is, they can do this on their own and I don't need to know, okay. Is make a list. Think of the people that they know that have retired already. And then think about the people where you look at their retirement.

You're like, hell yeah. And then think of the attributes that person has. Yes. And then go on the flip side of people that you know, that you've retired and like, no, I don't fancy that. And again, make a list of the attributes just to sort of raise awareness yourself on what are the ingredients that make for a good retirement.

Michelle: [00:13:00] Oh, definitely. And I think. It is about, you know, like you say, it's, it's looking and picking the bits that, that appeal to you. Isn't it. Okay. And, and I think with clients, I also say to them, so tell me the things you want to do. And let's factor that into the plan. Let's build it in, this is what you want to do.

Let's allow the cost for it. Let's do those things. And, you will, they do start thinking then don't, they, you sort of send them away. You sort of have a bucket list of things you want to do, and they come back with some lovely, lovely things. And you think. it's there. Look, it's there. That's your retirement.

You can have this and actually let me help you build a plan to go with it. And I think, yeah, it's, it's lovely to see the evolution of as you work with a client and over the years. So every, I dunno if you do the same, but every sort of annual review, you sit with a client and you go. Okay. So what does it look like now?

Does it look like it did last year? Or have you found something else you want to add to that list or something else you want to do? And I don't if your clients are the same and then they're like, oh yes, I was thinking about it. And actually I wanna go on [00:14:00] that cruise and I want to do that because, so, and so 

Julie: did it.

Oh, it's like the mindset gets turned on and then you get the hang of it and you just, can't more ideas to want, but you need, you need that catalyst. Don't you. Definitely. Yeah. And I think I'm gonna tell the quick story about the podcast I was listening to on the way to my client's house. So I didn't end up building a rubbish financial plan for my clients.

Okay. So it was Mitch Anthony, was it Mitch? Anthony. Anyway, he was talking about, an advisor who had lots of surgeons as clients, for Massachusetts hospital. I think it was all like desperate to retire. So they go and play golf all day. They get to retire and off they go and they play golf and then they get up the next day and they go and play golf and get up the next day.

And I go and play golf. I can theme these were surgeons. So this is like an intellectually stimulating job that [00:15:00] they've had. And now they're playing golf every day with the same people on the same course, within two years, they've were all on antidepressants and that scared the living daylight out of me that I am not properly preparing my clients for retirement.

And it's just, so from that point of view, it really ran talking to me how much of our identity can be tied up in what we do sometimes. Yeah. And when you take that role away, that can leave quite a chasm. 

Michelle: Yeah. Totally agree with you. And I think it's that person's identity often their, their occupation is, is, is them isn't it?

And it sounds lovely to not be doing it at all. sounds amazing. I think I had a client who actually ran a restaurant. Now that's a, you know, it's a full on job, isn't it it's every day, all day the hours along. And he was coming up to retirement and I think I looked at him and I said, so what are you going to do?

And he actually looked at me and [00:16:00] went, I am absolutely terrified because I have never not had a day where there's, I'm not doing anything. 

Julie: Mm. 

Michelle: And he said, I am quite scared. He said, I've got these, you know, views of I'm gonna go on holiday. He said, but I will get bored. And his wife looked at me and said, and he's going to drive me absolutely bananas. so what is he doing now? so he's just preparing to go away on a holiday. So this is sort of big holiday, and then he's going come back and he said, I think I'm going have to find something to do because I can't just stop working completely, but something on his terms, I think so something less hours, less of a commitment, and there are things out there aren't there, but it's just people seeing that because one life stops.

It doesn't mean something else can't start or come from that. Hmm. And evolve. And I think we were talking before that many people now semi-retire, [00:17:00] they don't fully retire. I may go and do something with a bit less stress, a few less hours. And it gives them still some independence, still get them to use, you know, their brain or things they wanna do.

But I do think a lot of our personality comes from our job. And I think that can be very scary as you lead to retirement. that you lose that? 

Julie: Yeah, I think so. One of the things I sometimes ask people to do is I've got a list of reasons why you would go to work. And so us on the list. So this, for the money, there's for the benefits, there's for, the engagement, social interaction with other people, there's for fulfillment, there's for passing knowledge on all kinds of reasons, benefits you get from going to work, to just get a feel for them as to what it is they get from that role and that they will miss.

And what could we do to supplement that once they're not doing that role? . [00:18:00] Yeah, 

Michelle: just that's nice. That gets people thinking, doesn't it? 

Julie: Yeah. Because I've got, since the clients, I was on the way to see, so I ended up doing a good job for them. And we were just sitting, talking and they both hate the jobs and they just want to finish them as soon as possible.

So it's not that they want to be retired. They just don't wanna be doing that anymore than they have to. And so once you know, that actually changes how we build a financial plan, because we know that normally we are assuming that you are earning and then all of a sudden the earnings stop and they drop off a cliff and we need to make the pension money appear for you.

But if we know you're good to go and have what's known as an encore career I belief, yes. They're like, okay, we can build that into the plan, which means that we might be able to move the date forward. So this client, he works in the oil industry, but he also plays in a band. I was like, right. What would you like to do?

He goes, well, there's a shop in Glasgow that sells drums. I'd really love a job in it. Yeah. [00:19:00]And I can sit there and chat with all the musicians coming in and out all day and check out the new drums. I'm like, great. okay. And because we know that this might be extra money coming in, that's gonna change the advice that we give you.

And it's going to get you more of what you want sooner. Yeah. But we need to be asking you the right questions. 

Michelle: definitely. And I think I, well, I spend probably, I think as, you know, probably 80% of my time building retirement plans for people. So a lot of it is how can we, how can we retire? How can we reduce our working hours?

Do something a bit more exciting, a bit more fun, something we like, but still have enough income, but also factoring in things like your state pension or any other pensions that you have that are coming in. and, and it's so lovely to see the change in people's mindset when they see what is possible. But the only way I can build that plan and probably the way you can build that plan [00:20:00] is to have the interaction from the client and the client thinking what possibilities there are.

And I'll say to clients, I'm going ask you now what you want to do for the next few years. And I don't want you to think about money. I want you to take money out of the conversation because money is a tool. We'll look at that afterwards. You tell me what you would like to do. If I said to you, you can do whatever you want for the next 10, 20 years.

And it changes their thinking because at the beginning they think they're limited by money. 

Julie: Mm. Yeah. 

Michelle: And actually they're not. And I've had clients where they've said to me, well, I won't be able to give up work and I won't be able to do this, and I'm going be in this job forever. And I really don't like it.

And then I'm going be fed up and you sort of think, okay, but I've actually then worked with them. And actually they've realized that a year after we've built this plan, they've given up the job they dislike, they've gone and found the job they love. I've got one who does temping. She just does temporary work because it's something new, it's a challenge.

And she [00:21:00] said, I love it. I don't know what's coming. And actually, I know I've got the option to come to you if I want a few months off to go and see friends or do things and go, can I have a bit of income from my pension? And you'll say to me, yes, you can. Because we've built it into the plan. but you will tell me that I can then switch it off when I go back and do something else.

Julie: Yeah. So that's interesting. I don't know if it's maybe just the traditional way of thinking about retirement is like, so there's the brochure isn't there with the couple walking on the beach together? Yeah. So retirement is the phrase I got taught when I started doing this job. It's the longest holiday of your life.

Yeah, that was the phrase I got told. And so this is what the brochure is selling you and the way that you get it is you chuck all the money in the pension and I'll be doing it back to front. because as we're fond of saying it's not about the money. It's about what do you want? Yeah. Like how do we make that happen?

Then we arrange the money to [00:22:00] support what it is you want. But we, we do it all wrong. We like put money on a pension, put money in a pension and that's your retirement. And it's, that's the last step. 

Michelle: Isn't it? Definitely. And I think you've gotta have that plan in place because even if you can't do everything, that's on that list for you of all those things you want.

You'll get somewhere towards it. It won't be a no, there, there will be something along the way. There will be a compromise, but I think the best thing to open up your mind and the best thing to explore is to go, there are no limits. What could I do? And people don't come up with really silly, extravagant things.

They come up with normal lifestyle, you know, things that they want to keep. So there's, there's no sort of, I'm gonna go buy a million pound house. So I'm going to go and do this. People are quite realistic. Uh, and I just think it's lovely to see them explore it and then to such as go, okay, we can do nine out of the 10 things you want.

How about that? And [00:23:00] it's amazing to see the change in that person. 

Julie: Well, we have a lot of fun running the cafe. The reason we do it is to reach as many women as possible to empower them around money. So if you know, a woman who would benefit from feeling financially empowered, you can help them and us by sharing this episode with them.

So I think what I would want. To take away from what you, you were saying. There is the, and I thought this was really good is that if we start off by thinking about the money, that's really limiting. Yeah. So let's take the money off the table. So if it's you that's prepping for retirement or it's your parents or someone, you know, then these are little questions just to give them a nudge to be thinking about it.

Just thinking about one of my clients? Actually, I'm trying to remember how we got there. She was coming up for retirement. And it was that I think all her child, it was around about the same [00:24:00]time all the kids had graduated university. She was divorced from her husband. So she's also then retiring.

So that's, there's lots of vacuums opening up in her life and like, okay, well, what do we want to put in them? And it was working through this process of all the relationships and everything you've done with your time up until now. What what's ticked your boxes for you. What what's been satisfying. What did it do for you?

What did you get from it? What are you not going to miss? And just having that conversation, we figured out what she would like to do with her time, because that's what we're doing in retire. We're spending time we're not spending money, we're spending time. And it was that she's got arthritis, a couple of other health issues as well.

So we, we figured out that focusing on her health was really important. So we had to have some health goals in there. So she goes on yoga retreats. And what have you. And then she's got involved, with a charity that does theater work. [00:25:00] Okay. Because she just really enjoys that and she gets a buzz out of it, but it's just, when you start having the deeper conversations, then we get a little bit more substance than I need two to two and a half thousand pound between 60 and 65.

So I can go on holiday and play golf. That's not a retirement plan. That's a brochure. 

Michelle: And, and I think it allows them by exploring it with them gently and taking money off the table. It allows them to paint a picture mm-hmm and also not use the stereotypes of retirement because they are, they, you know, they are stereotypes and your retirement's yours, isn't it.

Same as our working lives. All our working lives are different 

Julie: got a 21st century version. It may have two women walking on the beach now. Exactly. 

Michelle: you know, and I think it's just opening your mind to actually those 30 odd years of your life, what you can do with them. And I mean, the other thing, I dunno, if you find this is everyone says, well, I won't be spending much at all.

You know, [00:26:00] later in retirement. why not? Who's to say you can't who's to say you still can't do things. If you've still got the, you know, the tools there to do it. Why, why would you not, why do you think when you get to 70, you no longer can do all these things. 

Julie: Yeah. We just don't know 

Michelle: do it. You have to go and buy your paper and go and sit at home and that's it, you know, and it is funny how people, how we view retirement.

And when you talk to people in their sort of twenties and thirties, so that's years away and I think could, you know, even the retirement planning then. give up a bit of your income now to give you those options in retirement and the options you'll have available to you are amazing. Hmm. 

Julie: I think it just comes down to if, if you are, if you are younger, it's just then start being aware of what do you want more of in your life and what do you want less of.

Yeah. yeah. And there's no reason why you can't be working towards that. No, 

Michelle: no. And, and I think, you know, and, and we know from the [00:27:00] job that we do. Yes yearly, you start, the more options you have, but think of how exciting it'll be when you get to sort of your fifties and you're planning it and you've got this pot of, you know, money.

That's gonna be your tool. 

Julie: Yeah. Because that's all, that's all it is. Yeah. And I think. It's that whole idea. The fact that many others, I, I believe this is an opinion. This is my opinion. This is why we've not got Catherine for this episode. my opinion is I don't think most of my generation are going to do that normal retirement, but you get to 60 something and you just stop what you are doing completely.

I think we're all gonna end up going and doing something else. I totally 

Michelle: agree with you. I think we will. And I think that's definitely a trend that we're seeing. Yeah. And, 

Julie: and I think what I would say to people in the thirties and forties, less than to this, so you may be one of those people that's thinking I've not really done anything about my pension.

I'm not, there's no point there's not much [00:28:00] inner. Yeah. I've thought that as well. right. But if you think about it, right, it is dead to build up your pension and I will share more with you about that at some point. Right. But if you now know that you are not looking to re completely replace your income in retirement, if you know, there's a high probability, you're gonna go and do something else.

And that thing will probably make money. All of a sudden it makes that feel a bit more achievable. It's not like, oh my God, I've just got my income's gonna drop off cliff. And I've got no clue how to supplement that. but the chances are, that's not gonna happen for you. So if you're feeling that, that, and it's maybe got, you want to stick your head in the sand, I'm asking you just to sneak a tiny bit outta the sand because there are solutions.

Yeah. 

Michelle: Yeah. And I think it's it, it just comes down to that compromises. Isn't it? I mean, I was talking with, uh, another client late last week and she's got the opportunity to increase her hours and potentially only work for another. Two three years [00:29:00] or keep her hours where they are, but work for another five years.

But she said, actually, I can still enjoy life with those reduced hours. I can go and do all the things I wanna do in between rather than increasing my hours and putting more stress on me for two to three years. So she said to me, Michelle, what do you think? And I said, well, you have to do what feels right for you, but I can tell you that both will work for you.

we can build that plan using either one and it may change next year, which if you wanna do stuff, enjoy it, 

Julie: which one's gonna be better for our health and wellbeing. 

Michelle: Yeah. And I think she knew because yeah, you know, she wants to go on a, you know, a cruise with a friend and she said, I just can't. I don't wanna put that off because I can't have the time off.

I said within you're answering your own question, aren't you? And that's what I love about us coaching clients when they don't realize we're coaching them because you, you just talk to them and they, they come up with the solution and they're like, oh no, I could do that. Okay. 

Julie: [00:30:00] Oh, bugger. I've just realized what I've done.

what he done. I did this. This is what I was doing on Friday, Michelle. kind of, right. So I was visiting my girlfriend at the weekend because she's moving up to Scotland soon. So we have been together for the last five years, but in separate countries, like, well, this is a really big change and she face really focused on the practical stuff.

As she should be houses and what have you. And like, ah, but this is a big emotional change as well. It's a big change in life. When you sit down and talk about what we think it's going to be like, what our expectations are, what our visions are, what kind of boundaries we want in place, because otherwise that thing that we've been so looking forward to for five years could go horribly wrong.

Yes. And it's far too important to let that happen. That's kinda. A bit, like what I would encourage people to do approaching retirement is have that conversation about what your expectations are. What does it look like for you? Check that you're on the same [00:31:00] page. I think you've got use the story for as Michelle haven't you or that 

Michelle: being on the same page 

Julie: about the, the women when she found out her husband's retirement plans 

Michelle: yes.

So sat with clients and I've always dealt with them together. so never normally any surprises she retired last year, cause to spend more time with her grandchildren. So having lovely, having a lovely cup of tea with them, having a catch up, you know, looking at the plans for going forward. And I looked at her husband and said, so when he, when he, you know, looking to retire and his answer was so in about two years time and the look of shock on her face and she sort of looked and went, you never told me that.

I didn't know that. Why have I only just heard about. and again, so it's that conversation and that I was a bit sort of, okay. I am still here. I don't quite know what to sort of do with myself. Um, but it was very interesting because obviously she had in her head when he was going to retire, he'd obviously been considering this, but they hadn't had [00:32:00] that conversation together.

So the expectations were very different. Mm-hmm and also their views of what they needed in the next five years were very different. Mm, because actually we are gearing up then for him to give up his full-time work in two years time, which may mean drawing on the funds that he has. But again, it was just very interesting.

So like the couple that I know who actually ended up getting divorced after talking about retirement, you know, that was a, a conversation where we just sat there and it just came out and his words were well, I hadn't fully decided, but I've just said it out loud. Oh, so it's in his head, you know, and yeah, I suspect they'll have a pretty long conversation about it after I've left

Um, but they were both on the same page and actually at the end of it, she said, I'm really pleased that I now know. Hmm. Because now we can work on what comes after. Yeah. You know what we wanna do together. [00:33:00] So, but yeah, so that's where us financial advisors come into conversations and probably initiate things that we don't quite appreciate that we've just initiated.

Um, but again, we've sparked that conversation. So we've opened that communication and I know I've been guilty of it with my husband. You just don't have that conversation and you leave it and you both assume the other person knows what the other one's thinking. And we often 

Julie: don't, whereas I have a much more mature approach to my relationship and I schedule time to have the conversations.

I just didn't realize I was coaching myself in faith. Three of us yes. Serious. 

Michelle: It's it's inbuilt in you now, Julie . 

Julie: Yeah, but I think that's really interesting because I bet if you say retirement plan, first things people think is pensions numbers, money. That's what they need to do. And that's what the financial advisor does.

And I think that is a tiny, tiny part of it. Yes, we will do all the number crunching for you, but we need to know what are we crunching for? What do you want? And I think also [00:34:00]

Michelle: I know it's our job and it's what we do, but the number crunching and actually the numbers in the facts and the figures, the boring.

Julie: Yeah, they are. actually, 

Michelle: the fun stuff comes into sitting and going. So what are you gonna. Where are you gonna go? How are you gonna spend your day? And you know, that holiday sounds amazing. Please. Can I come with you? you know, and I think that that's the exciting bit and that's where. We can be exciting as financial advisors oh, we rock and 

Julie: roll we are.

No, it is. It is so cool. When we get to see people go off and do all these things, and it's the difference between before they speak to us, it's a dream after they speak to us it's goal, then it becomes a reality. That's that's what makes us like have the coolest jobs in the world. 

Michelle: It does because we can actually change people's lives.

in some ways it's small. In some ways it can be quite big, really, depending on what that [00:35:00]person's goals are. But I have to say, and I think it's probably the same for you. That's one of the reasons we do what we do, because the effect we can have Ah-huh and retirement is, is a huge part of our life. Isn't it?

It's a third of our life 

Julie: it's been sold to us as the big goal. Yeah. And I just wanna think if people are working towards this ultimate big goal, let's make sure we've got it right. 

Michelle: And ask the questions. Isn't it. Talk about it, ask the questions. And as with all, if we always come back to this with our podcast, don't we it's communication talking.

Julie: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes with yourself. 

Michelle: yeah. Well, I do that a lot anyway, 

Julie: but all right. So I think we've covered a lot of ground there. Haven't. 

Michelle: Yes. And, and, and covered a lot of the questions that people need to be asking themselves. 

Julie: Yeah. So do you wanna do a summary or should I do a summary? 

Michelle: No, I think I'm happy to.

I think it's just, 

Julie: Michelle's got the [00:36:00] function of memory. She's gonna do a summary for us, what we covered. 

Michelle: so I think it's really asking yourself the big questions. Don't go straight to thinking about what, what number. What age? Think about what you want your life to look like. Think about what you'd like to do.

Look at people around you who are retired, look at what they're doing, which bits do you like, which bits do you not like? Which bits do you want to avoid? And then really starting to build a picture of how that retirement looks and then look at the money. Don't bring the money in beforehand. Because the money is at all.

And then, you know, the money can then be used to build on that for you. But I think you've gotta have an open mind and just go in and go. This is a big part of my life. What do I want it to look like? You don't just want to settle for something because you feel you are limited. By money. So I would say it to everybody start with those questions.

The money bit comes [00:37:00] later. And if your financial, advisor's not asking you those questions, maybe you need to bring them up when you talk to them. 

Julie: Yeah. And. I'm gonna be really cheeky here now. okay. Sometimes like when we do these podcast, it's because of the frequent questions that we get. And I know that I'm not the only financial advisor.

This happens to a new client approaches you I'm might retire. I wanna take my tax free cash out my pension please. Or I want to take all the money out my pension please. Yeah. And then you'll wonder. So if this is you and you've approached one of those, you're like, I just want my pension. Are you like, why can't you just do it?

Why are you having to have these long conversations with me? Why are you asking me all of these questions? Can you not just do it? Yeah. This is why we won't just do it. because this, this is a once in lifetime decision for you. We want to make sure that the rest of your life is the way you want it to be 

Michelle: definitely.

And I think it's showing people how that retirement can look and those people that want to take it all as. You [00:38:00] know, in one go, I just want you to do this. And that's it actually, part of our role is to help you see how that can last. 

Julie: Yeah. That's why we, we, we can't do that. we won't do it. I said, I love when you get all the little metaphors and what have you.

And I can't remember who this one is, but it's like, if you go to a doctor and you walk in. And it's like my back hurts. Do you want him just to give you some drugs or do you want him to try and figure out what's wrong with your back first? Yeah. We're not just gonna give out the drugs. we, we need to diagnose first of all.

Yeah. And then we will prescribe and 

Michelle: the best plans we can build for clients. So when we've asked all these questions and we've explored it, and then actually we know you really well, and we are on the same wavelength as you then, and then we are working. and I always say to clients, I don't tell you what to do.

It's a working relationship. We work as a team. You tell me [00:39:00] what you'd like to do and I'll work with you. And let's see if we can do it together, because if I'm just telling you what to do, you're not really gonna listen to me anyway. The same as if a client tells us what they want to do, and doesn't want to ask the questions, oh, it's gotta be collaboration.

It's gotta be collaboration. And it's a working relationship. And I always say to all my clients, Yeah. And they sort of look at me a bit sort of oh, okay. but actually you do actually get to know them really well and you get to actually see them enjoy. 

Julie: Mm. I mean, I think there are advisors out there that will just do what you tell them.

And we'll just tell you what to do, but clearly it's not you and me, Michelle. . 

Michelle: We're special. 

Julie: Mm it's been said . Yes, it has. All right. Well, you think that's a brilliant summary. isn't it. Um, what we'll do is in this show notes, we'll make a little list of all the different tactics and different questions that we use with clients.

Um, [00:40:00] and if we've got any resources to share, you'll get a link to them in the, in the show notes as well. So even if it's not for yourself or it's someone, you know, then feel free to go and share it with them, 

Michelle: that sounds like a plan, I think. Yeah. Just get people thinking. 

Julie: Yeah. All right. Okay. Shall we, should we say thank you to them for listening to us, 

Michelle: Michelle?

I think we should say thank you very much, everybody. 

Julie: Yeah, no, thank you for joining us, cuz it's just the two of us today, but the rest of the gang will be back soon. All right. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the women of money cafe, which Julie found and Catherine, Tom Humphres.

Well, we have a lot of fun running the cafe. The reason we do it is to reach as many women as possible to empower them around money. So if you know, women who would benefit from feeling financially empowered, you can help them by sharing the show with them. And there's nothing we have more than hearing about the changes you've made seriously.

It's what makes this all worthwhile for us? So [00:41:00] please drop us a voice note and share. You can contact us. Hello at women and money cafe. You've just been listened to our financial chat, but please know none of this constitutes personal financial advice. Please reach out to one of us or any of the other fantastic financial advisors in the UK for that kinda help.