95. Women's Guide to Income Protection with Kathryn Knowles

We have the protection legend and guru, Kathryn Knowles, with us for this episode talking income protection. In under an hour Kathryn is going to share everything you need to know about this really vital (but not talked about) part of the protection puzzle.

Our favourite part? Kathryn's image of a cash machine in your front garden - which she is prepared to go to any lengths to protect - retinal image scans and baseball bats!

Areas Covered:
- Exclusions and changes in insurance policies
- Maternity leave and insurance coverage
- Impact of reduced hours on income protection eligibility
- Mental health and musculoskeletal conditions in income protection insurance
- Different premium options and their long-term costs
- Occupation-related factors affecting insurance rates
- Understanding income protection vs. unemployment cover
- Tailoring income protection policies to individual needs
- Difficulties in obtaining insurance and knowing the right questions to ask
- Occupational risk ratings and their implications for coverage
- Varying lengths and time limits for income protection coverage
- Assessing the impact of mental health on insurance decisions

Liked this? Check out Kathryn's first appearance on the podcast in episode 74 - Everything you need to know about life insurance.

Check out Kathryn's podcast (link below) where you'll find an answer to every question you might have about insurance. Really good resources if you have a specific health issue and you are wondering how insurers treat it.

GUEST EXPERT: Kathryn Knowles  is a specialist adviser for personal, business and group life insurance, critical illness cover and income protection, within the UK and internationally. Kathryn produces videos and a podcast that are used within the insurance sector, by charities and the general public, as a way to educate about ways to access insurance.
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YOUR HOSTS

Julie Flynn is an experienced independent financial adviser and financial coach. Justice and equality drive Julie. Which is why she’s spent years studying and researching how stress affects our financial decision making.

Julie is best known for her work with women who have lost their partner and coaching financial services business who want to implement fair and transparent charges.
Ebb & Flow Financial Coaching | Bree Wealth & Tax | Instagram

Michelle Lambell  started her career in financial services as a Stockbroker in 1999 undertaking both advisory and discretionary investment management. Today she is a Chartered Financial Planner, specialising in retirement planning advice, pensions and investments and a Certified Financial Coach. 

Transcript

This transcript has been generated by AI and such some mistakes and misspellings may occur.

Julie Flynn [00:00:01]:

Welcome back to this episode of The Women of Money Cafe. Okay. If you listen to episode 74, then you'll know that we had Kathryn Knowles on. And Kathryn was talking to us about everything you need to know about life cover. Now if you've listened, you'll know that Kathryn is, like, incredibly knowledgeable. when it comes to all thing’s protection. She's just the go to person for all those financial advisors. So it made sense to get Kathryn back on the show to about something that I think is really important that some of you might not even know exists. Or if you do not exist, you just, like, I don't know enough about to know if that's something I should be doing. And it's income protection. So I'm delighted to welcome you back into the Kathy, Kathryn. I'd love for you to be back again. Thank you. Alright. And I've got my co-host with me today, Michelle.

Kathryn [00:00:53]:

Morning, Julie.

Julie Flynn [00:00:55]:

Hello. Alright. So here we are. All sitting comfy on the sofa. Let's have a good old chat about income protection. So, Kathryn, do you want to kick us off by just sort of giving us a broad outline of what to us? Yeah. Income protection,

Kathryn Knowles [00:01:10]:

is essentially what it says. It is in many ways, but there can be some confusion over it as well. So with income protection, what you are doing is you are ensuring, part of your gross income, each month up to a certain age. Now what people will sometimes think is income protection is unemployment cover. so, like, if you made redundancies and it doesn't usually cover that. I'm not saying it doesn't ever. the majority of actual income protection policies don't do that. There is a separate insurance that does do that, but income protection is all about your inability to work due to you being ill. And it's really, really this was one of the best income best insurance policies out there because you can tweak it and build it in so many ways, but that also makes one of the most complicated when people are looking at it. So you can have you know, usually, you so you can do it personally. You can set it up through business as well, and that can change things a bit. But if I look, talk about it for any more in a personal sense, so that's why you set it up for yourself to ensure your own money. you're usually going to be insuring around 65%, 70% of your gross income. Now do bear in mind with your gross income that we do need to be careful if there's a certain amount that's, maybe commission or bonus based because we need to just, we don't want to undo ensure ourselves in some ways, but we also don't want to over insure ourselves.

So I'll just give a really quick example of that just to stuff like that. So I know that I've just talked a little bit jargony there. So let's say can't do the maths too well on my head, so just forgive me while I try and do this. I'm trying to think of something that's, like, 60% or something, but I say to say this £30,000. You get £30,000 a year. and actually £5000 of that is bonus. So you'll be insuring yourself probably for £30,000 a year. Poole you'll do the maximum, probably, based upon 30,000. But if you don't get a bonus the next year, oh, it's a lot less. then what will have happened is you've actually you're you've paid in a sense for 30,000, but you actually got less money than that. So the amount the insurer might pay you might be a little bit less than what you were expecting. 

So if you do have any kind of fluctuating income, it's really important to be on top of keeping an eye on how much you insured for. If it's consistently lower, you might want to just change what how you've sort of set the policy up. But if higher than you might want to increase it as well. does that does that make sense? Have I gone a bit too jargon y? Yep. It did make sense. It did make sense. So we would do that. So you would do ideally, I always say to people that I'm advising on income protection. I'm going to go for the all singing or dancing version. it's much better to look at the absolute best of the best that we can get and then bring it backwards and tweak it if it's not within the price people want. And what's quite surprising is I think a lot of people think that income protection is phenomenally more expensive than what it is. I think I saw some statistics where a lot of people expect it to be about four times the price of what it actually is. 

So it can really surprise people as to that it isn't anywhere near where they're expecting it to be. so there are some really funny things that can happen with it that can mess change the price. I've got a really, really good example for you. So a really key thing to look Poole, and I'm saying I do the all singing all dancing. I say to people, I'm doing the all singing all dancing, but the cheapest version of the all singing or dancing in a sense. Let's just go, you know, so playing about with the wording here a little bit, but I always say to people as well. I completely appreciate that you might do research yourself as well because why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you try and have a look? You know, I'm saying it's earning one thing to you, but it's perfectly natural to just have a quick look yourself. and they will absolutely see a cheaper price than what I'm saying to them. So I'm just very open from the start because there are so many ways to change the pricing. So the amount of money per month that you're getting, how quickly the money kicks in because it usually doesn't kick in from the 1st day that you're unable to work, it can do sometimes, but it's usually at least 4 weeks. It can be anywhere up to 12 months before the money kicks in. it can go up to age 68, 70, whatever you choose it to be. And with any of these things, the more money, the ensuring, the quicker you're going to get the money, the longer the ages that you're going to have it, the more expensive it is. So there's lots of ways. then there's some extra things that make it very, very complicated. 

So with income protection, you often get the premiums in 4 different ways. And do bear with me because again, I'm so sorry. It's full jargon. We do have a massive issue with jargon in our industry, but the first one is guaranteed premiums. that means if I say to you, it's £30 now, it's £30 forever. It's not going to change. That's it. It could be guaranteed age costed. And these aren't always easy to see. So it's really important to check this and really, you have to be so, so specific about the premiums when you're getting this advice or looking yourself. So age costed guaranteed means, sorry, my dog just suddenly wanted into the background. Hopefully, he won't stop parking and I wasn't going to deliver anything as far as I'm concerned. And so age costed means that it will increase each year as you get older, but it's guaranteed to increase at a certain rate. So you know Right. I'm 35 now and it's costing me £25 a month. At 36 is going to cost me £25.20 a month. So we can plot it as to how much it's going to be all the way up to retirement. We then have some different ones which are a bit unusual. So we have reviewable, which means that each year the insurer reviews the premiums, and they might stay the same or they might change. I think if they are going change, they're more likely to go up and come down. So it is sort of that kind of a we a little bit of a risk there. And then we have reviewable edge costed, which means, again, it is guaranteed to increase each year as you get older, and the premiums will also be reviewed at the same time. So when we're looking at income protection with some of these insurers, some of the policies we've got all these different options and then on top of that 4 different ways that the premiums can be worked out. And got a good example as to why it's so important not to just run to the cheapest one if you're able to. I had somebody that I was insuring for income protection. And for them, and because of their amount of cover that they needed in different circumstances, they're guaranteed premium. each month was a £120 a month for their income. Now I had that was guaranteed. I then had guaranteed age costed. And that started at £75 per month. Now naturally, any of us are going to look at that and go, I would quite like the £75 a month option, please. That's a lot nicer, you know, brilliant. But the important thing is then to look at the long-term thing, and that's when an adviser really comes into play like myself. So £20 a month guaranteed is more money now. £75 a month is cheaper now, but a lot more money in the long run because when you looked at it and you looked at the premiums over the entire time from setting it up to retirement age, the cheaper one now was £90,000 more expensive than the other one.

Julie Flynn [00:08:25]:

Yeah. And that's why -- £90,000 more expensive. So the cheap option is £90,000 more expensive.

Kathryn Knowles [00:08:33]:

Yes. Because especially by the time you're getting towards on the age costed ones, when you're starting to get towards the age of your late forties, the fifties, the premiums massively jumping up, and they are going to get to a point where to be honest, at some point, you won't be pay you won't pay £90,000 because you will have had to probably cancel the policy a lot earlier than that because we're going to go from £75. And once you are getting older, it's not going to be too long before you're well over £300 a month for the premiums. So that's the thing. So for a long time, the guaranteed, you know, age costed is going to look really nice. But those are years when you really need it kicking in, probably most likely reasons for it kicking in, it's going to get some appointments and affordable. Now I say all that. There are some absolutely amazing options with guaranteed age cost. So I don't want to say that never to go for them, for some people, it just comes down to affordability. Somebody might look at what we've just said as that example and go, that's all one of good, Kathryn, but I can't afford a £120 20 right I can afford 75. That's fine. If that's what needs to be done, then you go for the £75 a month option. It's just knowing those differences. And there's also, sometimes, some people's occupations mean that they are ridiculously expensive, I mean, silly expensive with a guaranteed premium. but on the guaranteed age cost age, because they usually sit within different types of insurers that they actually end up being really, really cheap. put in comparison. So there are absolutely places where these are important. But if you are somebody who doesn't really have anything that's going to come up in the application that could have influenced the outcomes and even sometimes then it's fine, but It's usually to do with the occupation. If you've just got quite a straightforward, not whiskey occupation, then, really, you should be ideally being able to go for at the guaranteed options.

Julie Flynn [00:10:27]:

Alright. It's a completely different bargain that we can go into as well if you want to. Alright. Can I jump in here for a second? Because there's as you talk, you're doing a great job of explaining it to me. And, like, but I've got, like, 25 years’ experience in financial services. Right? So I'm imagining the listeners are sitting there going, okay. There's 4 kinds of premiums. There's my occupation, and it's how long do I want to have you? I thought we just, for a second, could I ask you to do something for me, Kathryn? Cause you've got a really good analogy you use, but conceptually.

Kathryn Knowles [00:10:57]:

getting across the idea of income protection. I think if you could just share that with the listeners, I think they're going to go like, oh, okay. Absolutely. So there's a really good Lambell. And actually I've taken this, like, in a sense, somebody else sort of said this to me, and I've taken it and sort of made it my own in a way that I describe it, if that's okay. So the reason for income protection is, basically, if you think about everything that you have and wants and do in life, it's linked to money, which is a really kind of it's quite a sad thing in many ways that it is, but it is. You want to eat, you want to have a house over your head, you want water, you want clothes, it’s all to do with money. And ultimately, we do lots of insurances. Like, we lots of people have pet insurance, and you can write, okay, if you're insuring your pets, you know, you're more important than your pets. I know not everybody on the side thinks that I might get hate mail from saying that. However, you know, is the kind of thing if we are, you know, our pets rely on us and our money. So we need to pay them insurance. We need to make sure of our money is okay. 

So a good way of describing it is that imagine that you have a cash point in your garden from garden. And once a month, your income comes out of that cash point. If you can't get if you don't get your cash at that exact point, that's it. There's no other money coming in. you're going to do an idea what you're going to have to do, basically. And it comes down to think about what would you do? If you don't think of it yourself, what would you do to protect that cash points and just be really mindful. So I really think, right, that's it. There is there's just no other money unless I'm there, on the last Friday of the month at 9 o'clock when that money's going to come firing out, you know, like, one of those toy things where I just go at you. Right. I'm going to need to grab it and run into the house. 

Now what would you do to protect that? Now in my point of view, if it was me and we were all in this kind of thing in this kind of society was like that. I was kind of thinking of, like, right. Well, I would have it. I'd build a box around it, which has, like, you know, retinal scanning key codes, maybe some kind of electricity wires, I'd have my husband there with a baseball bat kind of thing just ready as a just in case. You'd watch everything, wouldn't you? You'd be looking for anybody like a hawk because you'd be so worried that you wouldn't get your money that you need to live on. It is everything is so essential upon it. So if you had that cash machine in the offline garden and you would do not exactly as the same extent as me, but something similarly to protect that money coming out of there, what you need to do is think actually that's my body, in a sense, I am the cash point. And I need to know that if something happens, which means I cannot work, because I think another thing as well is people often go, but I've got statutory sick pay. 

Now statutory sick pay is I can't really figure off the top of my head. exactly. I did do it recently, but I just can't remember, but it means for 28 weeks, so for that six and a half months, if you could just get statutory sick pay, you have to live off roughly £2800 for six and a half months. That's it. and people don't think that, you know, we hear, you know, statutory sick pay. Oh, I'll be fine. I've got statutory sick pay. we obviously know that there are things like disability benefits in the UK, but they are incredibly hard to get. I mean, some people might debate that, but they are very, very hard to get to keep as well going forward because they are assessed. And if you are in a situation where you cannot work again, the last thing that you really want to be having to do is fight for those kinds of benefits. And even if you do get them, they are not going to enable you to live and maintain your standard of living that you have right now. And I know, obviously, Julie, you are talking about pensions at times, investments. If you are somebody who is so minded that you want to make sure that your future is fine because you want to make sure your investments, your pensions, even. Your pensions and your investments are going to look after you. The thing that funds those things is your income. and what funds your income is you and your body and your minds. And the way to protect that is income protection.

Julie Flynn [00:15:00]:

That's an awesome explanation of just for the record, I'm building an underground bunker. And I am putting the cash machine in in the underground bunker. I don't need the dramatic razor wire. Like, like, despite fence, Katherine. You have a very, very vivid imagination, which is a little bit troubling, but Michelle, how are you protecting your cash machine?

Michelle [00:15:25]:

Well, I don't know if I think there's something even more or, you know, imaginative now. So let me have a think about it, and I'll come back to you.

Julie Flynn [00:15:32]:

Alright. So, Kathryn, that's a really good overview. And you've started to give us an idea of the complexity that's involved with almost like all the different levers we can pull with this kind of plan to tailor it. So I'm just wondering then, like, Obviously, our listeners tend to be women. We know we've got the odd man out there. Thank you very much for listening. It's life. Is it a little bit more complicated? for women because we have career breaks. Our income can fluctuate a bit more than men. Something about, you know, if we take time off to raise children, or to look after family members, or we just decide to go part time. So our career and our earns tend not to be linear the same way that men are Yeah. Absolutely. And there's other things to consider about women as well in the income protection space that I'll go into.

Kathryn Knowles [00:16:22]:

So there are certain policies that you, I mean, you do some policies. You can arrange while you want maternity leave even. you know, sort of potentially in anticipation of coming back. If you are on maternity leave, you know, your policy will just stay active with quite a few insurers, but it is always best to chat to them and just say, right. This is what's happening I still protected what would happen in the event of a claim? and just making sure that's okay. In in terms of working, like, reduced hours, that is usually fine. The only thing is that was with some insurance and some policies, you need to work at least 16 hours to be able to have the insurance. So as long as you're working more than 16 hours, with the majority of insurers, you should be able to get income protection. And there are, as well, certain things about summing policies will come with what synonyms are so sorry for the technical wording again, but a guaranteed and shareability option. 

So that means there's if something certain happens, like certain life circumstances, like your mortgage increases or, your salary increases, which, you know, could about how common alternatives, something happens, and your job we go, you know, all this kind of thing that you can, get up to a certain amount. They'll just, in a sense, they'll say, right. This is increased. Oh, this has happened. We're prepared to increase your income by this much. but that's really, really positive to know. I mean, it's a really key thing as well. It's not to make If you aren't having a protection place, don't make knee jerk reactions thinking, oh, well, this has happened, so it's just not valid anymore. 

Do speak to an adviser because we do see stuff like this and quite a bit. And what you do need to be careful of is that if something happened health wise over time, that you didn't have originally, you might want to keep that original party in place because a new one might have an exclusion. And this is the other thing about women and income protection, and we're trying to do quite a lot of work on this in company because we it's definitely an area that we've seen quite a few issues on. So the main areas for claim in income protection are mental health and a lovely word, musculoskeletal conditions to basically things like back pain. That tends to be the 2 main claim areas. And what ensures they're quite conscious of is that if somebody already has those things, it can sometimes lead to an exclusion on the policy for claims relating to that condition. Now some people can feel quite annoyed about that or frustrated about that. 

So I sometimes use an example that I think hope makes it a bit easier to understand. I mean, I don't particularly like it myself, but they're there. But from an insurer point of view and a risk point of view, if we took Parkinson's, and I always like to go to this, my dad is Parkinson's, so I just always think it's a nice one for me to just I can really envisage it. studio Parkinson's and they were to take our income protection, we probably would assume that the policy wouldn't pay out for something related to Parkinson's because they could start the one day and claim the next day, which just doesn't work. It would just be financially that all the insurance companies would just go immediately bust if everybody was able to do that. So it's kind of the same with mental health and back pain. We used to have it where any kind of level of mental health meant that there would be a mental health exclusion. and same with back pain, and it would just be forever. Whereas now it shows us our starting to change things, which is really positive. So we are starting to see sometimes a case of, right, well, actually, you know, this person, there was some stress, very understandable stress to a situation, 3 or 4 years ago. So, actually, we won't put on a mental health exclusion. Maybe at the moment, we're talking in in in this month. It could be, like, in 3 months’ time from now or something. They say, right. You know, once we get to actually 5, 4 years and there's been no mental health, we won't need to put an exclusion on there. I'm talking very randomly here with numbers and time frames just to try and give examples.

But with women, a key area that we have, a few key areas that we have that can be real difficulty is for women who've had children specifically because once you have the mainstream income protection, we tend to I kind of caught, again, a baseball bat analogy here. I we kind of say 3 strikes in you're out kind of thing. 3 exclusions, and you don't tend to get the income protection policy on the mainstream. So with a woman, she's maybe had some personal depression. She's got back pain because she's been looking around a kid for a good 3 years or so. There may be something else. There may be a family history something that she doesn't have, but a family history of something that each of those individually isn't like, it wouldn't stop her having income protection, but because there's 3 things, it means a lot of the mainstream insurers would decline the income section. Now we're doing quite a lot of work on this because it does feel like it shouldn't be like that. And I do understand in, you know, from an under-eye point of view. So the underbite is the person who makes a decision, and they work for the insurer that's, you know, they're seeing at least 2 things there that 2 of the biggest claim areas on this policy. And what the insurers tend to say is, well, if we've excluded the two main areas that people would claim on, is the policy worth it. Now what we need is lots and lots of Poole to go, I would still really love this because I could still develop Parkinson's. I could still have stroke, which means I can never work again. I could develop multiple sclerosis. That's quite a thing that's getting diagnosed. Can I ask you a question here then? Because I've had this situation.

Julie Flynn [00:21:44]:

Yeah. With a client because there was 3 things. So the providers are refusing to ensure because they don't believe their policy offers enough value to the per that's applying for it.

Kathryn Knowles [00:21:55]:

If they've taken out the, at least, the 2 main claim areas, which I've said back pain and mental health make up a significant majority of income protection claims. They will think this is this even, in a sense, is it worth it? Because we've took out so much in a sense that the two main areas that you're likely to claim on aren't there anymore.

Julie Flynn [00:22:19]:

So this this is almost like the provider is trying to do the decent thing. It's -- It's misguided, in my opinion.

Kathryn Knowles [00:22:27]:

are, but that is it. Wow. Okay. And that's similarly why we have such an issue time with diabetes. So going over to a different product site, but, diabetes and critical illness cover, especially type 1 diabetic, because with type 1 diabetics, there is an enhanced risk of unfortunately stroke, heart attack, and some cancers. So that's your 3 main claim areas on a critical illness policy. Again, a significant proportion of the claims are those 3 areas. So that's why we have such difficulty ensuring people with type 1 diabetes for critical illness cover because the insurance say, well, the likelihood of what you will develop or anybody will develop is this, and you're quite at heightened risk, which means we can't cover those things. It's, you know, potentially it's even a marginally affordable pricing that are being at ridiculously expensive, so we can't do it. That's not to say that we can't insure people with type on diabetes with critical illness cover. It's just we really need to know where to go. but that's what we see with a lot of the mainstream insurers, but then you also have, a lot of those known as the friendlies.

Julie Flynn [00:23:36]:

the friendlies are literally people of the mutual societies that work in the income protection space, and I I'm sorry listeners, but it is just blanket terms. we just clarify for a certain for a minute here. Okay. So you get what's known as friendly societies -- Yeah. -- which are mutual companies, which means they don't have shareholders. It's not that we think they're particularly warm and cuddly and approachable companies. That's not what Kathryn meant. Although they make -- A lot of them are. A lot of them are very friendly. Yeah. I'm sure. One of them, her for the people who works in in one of the insurances, her mom nicks lots of them teddy bears, and she gives them out different places at different events that she tens, and she's just, so you have, like, a little teddy basis gorgeous, wonderful things. Mom's ninety-three, and she just knits away for us all. Anyway,

Kathryn Knowles [00:24:18]:

so, you know, it's they are really good and what they tend to have more option there. So if somebody has had a lot more than 3 things, they tend to potentially have more options to cover. So another thing as well with women, and I don't know if I mentioned this in the last one or not, but I'll just mention it again just in case. menopause can potentially be something that's tricky. Now for a woman who's going to go direct online and solve the questions truthfully as she would do with menopause symptoms, she might have a mental health exclusion on the policy. Sometimes it is a matter of going direct. And the reason I say mental health exclusion is some women instead of taking HRT, they choose to take antidepressants. So as soon as it's an antidepressant that's being took, there is an there is kind of an assumption that there's a mental health condition there all that the mental because they've chosen antidepressants that there is some kind of symptoms of anxiety or stress, which we all, you know, it's very natural at times to feel anxious and stressed. It's completely normal human emotion to feel that. Obviously, it can be more heightened when we're going through menopause and it is really a matter of trying to speak directly to underwriters to say to them, this is menopause.

Julie Flynn [00:25:34]:

Oh, that's interesting because some GPs will prescribe antidepressants because they believe it can help with hot flashes. Yes. So it's not even anything anxiety.

Kathryn Knowles [00:25:44]:

or mental health related. Yep. Absolutely. And other conditions as well. So autism, sometimes, or not autism. Sorry. high mobility syndrome. So I have high mobility syndrome. So sometimes the antidepressants are diagnosed with musculoskeletal conditions because they have a certain pain aspect to them as well. Yeah. I've had amitriptyline.

Julie Flynn [00:26:04]:

for sciatica.

Kathryn Knowles [00:26:05]:

Exactly. So it's not it’s not and it depends upon the question set. Right. You said sciatica, and it says, have you had medication? And you'd say, yes. And, you know, it could well be, I have to say, sciatica, that they may say, when we lost symptoms, right, okay, exclusion for sciatica on the claim. But if you didn't have any of that and you just menopause doesn't come in any of the questions set, but there would be a question saying, have you been prescribed any medication in the last 3 years of 3 3 months potentially that's ongoing. And you'd say yes, and they'd say, well, what's it for? And you'd maybe put in menopause that'd be fine. But then it might potentially lead to other questions. And sometimes, you know, we if you need to put in there that is an actual antidepressant, we can sometimes end up with that. So just be very mindful of that what you sometimes see online or directly then share it yourself. It can be a very different outcome if you use an adviser. as well, sometimes we have different question sets. So what the insurers put out to the public, sometimes question wise, sometimes different to what an adviser will see.

Julie Flynn [00:27:10]:

Right. That's interesting. I didn't know that. That's interesting. Well, thanks for that, Kathryn. So, Michelle, as Kathryn sharing all her information and knowledge on income protection. Bloody hell, Kathryn, is there anything you don't know? You're brilliant. Michelle, is there anything that you wanted to ask? Well, we've got the expert records.

Michelle [00:27:29]:

No. I think it's really interesting what you're saying about sort of underwriting that I've had a few clients. So you go through questions for things and what actually what that might trigger. And actually how they view those when you said about the 2 issues, and then they say, well, actually, as you say, I've got many clients who go, well, actually, I'd still like to be covered for everything else. And I think for me, that was one of the biggest because I didn't realize that. I know I our clients where they said we won't, you know, accept you, or and then you go look elsewhere. and that's all insurers must have their own criteria. Is that right for underwriting? They all have criteria.

Kathryn Knowles [00:28:04]:

Yeah. So they have what's known as their own in underwriting philosophies, and it's really interesting in the insurance market. And I didn't know since I started advising, but we all know the insurers we all know your big name companies, you know, if you think about it, you know, something like if you go online and do something like an online comparison site, there's lots and lots of big names that we're all very familiar with. What a lot of people don't realize is that there are insurers of the insurers. So insurers are one level, and then what we have above them, is what's known as reinsurers. So the reinsurers are the ones that absolutely, they set certain things, and then the insurers set certain things. So the reinsurers will be saying, right, they've got all these people known as actuaries who look at incredible amounts of numbers in data, decades of health data to make their decisions. And they will look at it and they'll go, right. In this situation, we can potentially we're prepared to say that we will be prepared to look at someone in this situation as standard rates or potentially, you know, they might add a rating, which could be an exclusion. It could be a premium in on the Poole, or there'll be some people as well to say, we cannot insure this person. It's some it is unusual to get someone who can't be insured anywhere. but there are times, but it is it's phenomenally rare to actually have that situation. so they have the reinsurer. So the reinsurer set what's known as their underwriting manuals and guides, which the insurers then use. So then the insurers will then set their own philosophy. Because what they're doing is they're kind of going, well, Dean shows the same, right? Well, we'll take on 60% of the risk, and the reinsurer will take on, like, 40% of the risk for each that we have. And what can make it very, very tricky is that the insurers use different reinsurers. but then they might also use differently insurers per product type. So you might have that they have their life and critical illness with one reinsurer, their income protection, another one, you're like, well, how can you be so good for income protection with this condition, but you're not I'm not seeing it a positive for the life and physical illness. You come like, is it something about the health that I need learn more about and understand for the future. And it concerns because obviously it's a different reinsurer, and it's like, fair enough. And so you're like, right. And you're trying to figure out, right, why does that reinsurer sit? Who uses them? Where can I go? You know, for life in critical illness kind of thing? And you're trying to figure all that out. So they will have their own decisions. And what's really What's really interesting is with the way that the insurers do their manuals is that they are reviewed quite a bit, and they will change in that it's known as what's known as the insurance risk appetite as to what they will and won't want to insure. And it does flow, but you'll find that some insurers will be incredible for people that have a higher BMI, and then some aren't great. And then you'll find some are brilliant with mental health, are certain mental health conditions, but really bad with some mental health conditions, whereas someone over here might be brilliant for those other ones, but not as good as and so they all kind of take a slightly different place. And it's there's nothing. There's nowhere to say this is what this one is doing at this time because it's all obviously internal decisions. And as an adviser, you do get used to it, you know, which ones are going to be good for certain situations. But overall, I think it's really important as well to say here, just again, because thinking about the women's side, I think. So the main thing women's side is, you know, there are some health conditions that are very women based. but generally, I think it's important to say that due to a certain directive, quite a few years ago now, the people pay the same price for their insurance policies. So they're not allowed. So  if a man was and a woman are there, They're both the same age. neither of them are smokers, same BMI, absolutely everything about them is the same. We're wanting the same amount of insurance. The price would be exactly the same. It used to be different. So it used to be that men paid more for life insurance, women paid less, and there's women paid more for income protection. and that men paid less, but they've made it all equal now. So in terms of equality, that is obviously a good move. The only problem was is that men paid martial life insurance women paid less So the women became more expensive. And in income protection, the women paid more, the men paid less than the men came up. So it’s kind of, like, it worked out and it didn't at the same time. but, yeah, they definitely have their own, different things. So the I work very much my company helps people who are a lot of the time, people who have found it difficult to get insurance. Now it could be that they've been declined insurance. It could be that they've had ratings or exclusions that have just made it not possible for them. And it literally can go from being they've gone somewhere, maybe direct or the main reason you've used another adviser at some point and have been declined, and, actually, you can get them standard rates elsewhere. It's just knowing which questions and which insurer to go for. The only other thing for me to mention, I said occupation. Occupations are really interesting one And I don't want to do stereotypes, but I'm going to do slight stereotypes. If that's okay, please forgive me women, but I'm going to do it. Okay. So within protection, there are 4 occupation classes. Number 1, not seen as any risk. Number 4, super risky. women can fall under any of these areas. And the risk rating of those things is all to do about it's not necessarily it's not necessarily the job. It can be, but it's all about if something happens to you physically or mentally, could you still do that job? So, let's think of some examples. So number 1, let's say an up in person would be class 1. likelihood is you've maybe; I see Brooke in your leg, probably still going to be able to do the admin work. You broke your arm. You're going to need to take some time off, but it's not going to probably be a long, long time off. You know? It's, you know, it's going to be short lived. Number 2. Now this often entertains people when I say this one. Nail technicians. Nail technicians are seen as riskier. because it doesn't take much for one of these, these fingers suddenly have something happen to them, which means it would be more difficult for you to do your job. That's interesting because I'm going straight and it's skydiving.

Julie Flynn [00:34:23]:

as high risk. And you're like, oh, nail technician. I'm like, oh, I'm thinking about this all wrong. You'd be surprised sky diving as an occupation,

Kathryn Knowles [00:34:31]:

Poole be very surprised with that versus as a hobby. it's much basically skydiving as an occupation with a few insurances here. Well, I'm going to say, not necessarily, I'm not talking about income section, life and kicks skydiving as an patients pretty much. You can potentially do it straight through and not have any issues, but if it's a hobby, that's different and it will be rated. if I'm a skydiving instructor, I'm presumably much better at skydiving than somebody that does it as a hobby. Theory. Yes. But you are doing significantly more dives. That's true. But the majority of insurers wouldn't do that. It's just knowing better luck. And so we're going back. So number 1 admin, number 2 nail technician, number 3, and this does get people giggling again yoga instructor. because they are incredibly fit. Incredibly. I have a party's instructor. And honestly, the things that she does with her body, I'm just like, Wow. You know, it's incredible what they can do. But if something happens tonight, it doesn't take much for them. You know, admin person has a horrendous cold really horrendous calls, you know, they can probably still keep doing their thing. I know we're not talking a 4-week thing here. But, a yoga person, if they get a horrendous cold, they're not doing their job. They're not able to deliver their class. If they've broken their leg, they're probably going to use you quite a bit of rehabilitation because they're going to need to get themselves back up to that fitness to be able to deliver their class. Cause it's not necessarily just their own body as well. When you were instructed, you might be man hands smoke people as well. So you need to be able to be safe and might handle other people. And then number 4, cleaners. Clean is seen as a Lambell occupation. Because at the risk of you not being a to do your job because can you remember the one of the one of the big claim areas? Poole back. Back. Okay. So with each of them, we're talking what's the likelihood of mental health, what's the likelihood of back pain, the risks, what's the likelihood of if that person has that that they can't carry on. So you often find teachers, chefs, they're quite high upon the list as well. Very high stress jobs more likely on a mental health claim. so there's just some examples of how occupations because, again, you think skydive and you think in bomb disposal, like, but you're thinking all these things, you know, where and true, they are absolutely seen as, you know, quite high risk, but it doesn't take much for a more stereotypically female job to actually go quite high in those ratings. That's really interesting,

Julie Flynn [00:37:08]:

Kathryn. I had no I hadn't put those 2 things together at all.

Kathryn Knowles [00:37:14]:

It's a lot of people don't. That's you know, and it's just because I do training on this day. So I'm like, it's in my mind. but, yeah, and then that that absolutely will determine the insurer as well that you need to go to.

Julie Flynn [00:37:27]:

Alright. Now I've got another question for you as I'm listening to your talk. I'm thinking about situations I've come and come across in the past. And situations I've been in as well is so Let's say I've listened to the podcast and like, okay, this income protection stuff's really cool. I'm going to go out and get me some. Yeah. So I go where I find someone that knows what they're doing who knows which levers to Poole and I end up with the right policy. But today, when I take it out, I'm on £50,000 a year. Yeah. Fantastic. So I've been insured for as much as possible. Then 5 years down the line are to say that I want to go part time. So now I am in the position of being over insured.

Kathryn Knowles [00:38:05]:

Yes.

Julie Flynn [00:38:06]:

So let's say that in those 5 years, I've had some health issues as well. Yeah. So I want to keep hold of my plan because the chances are if I go somewhere else, I'm going to get rated or excluded or refused. So can I approach my existing provider and ask them to reduce the cover? Yes.

Kathryn Knowles [00:38:28]:

they will do. They'll reduce the cover, and they will reduce the premium in line with how much they reduce. I don't know the exact calculations for reducing the premium in that situation.

Julie Flynn [00:38:38]:

but insurers are always, look, insures are generally happy to reduce their risk. You know? So in theory, that's possible. And if I've got and if I've got the guaranteed insurability option and something happens in the future, that means that my earnings go back up and it takes 1 of those guaranteed insurability options, then I can get my original or what an more appropriate level to cover them.

Kathryn Knowles [00:38:59]:

It's if you've gone from 50,000, I see you went from 50,000 to 25,000. even with the guaranteed insurability option, you're not within that allowance that they allow for that, you're not going to get back up to 50,000. It's too much of a jump. Right. And so, I did something. I've been looking at it for somebody recently, and they were able to increase their income as long as they had at least a 10% increase in their salary. But that was still capped in a sense. You're saying as long as you've increased, you're sorry, by 10%, we can look at potentially doing this, but it would be a maximum of this much. So it really just depends upon what you are wanting to do and how long you're planning on it for as well. Right. So if you let's we take a bit of a random example, if that's okay. So let's say somebody took out their policy 5 years ago, and they're planning on going part time for a year. has just said. Don't know why they would, but let's just say they were going to part time for a year. So they're going from 50,000 to 25,000, but during that time, that last 5 years, they have had some, depression. Now what we might do is have a conversation say, right. Well, we can do this, but at the end of the, you know, 5th at the end of this year, I mean, you might be able to take sabbatical leave with it. So just, you know, again, don't rush to things. But if you did specifically want to do that, just have a think because you're not guaranteed to necessarily get back to 50,000. And if you did, if you needed to top up with another policy, you wouldn't replace the original because doesn't have the mental health exclusion. You would top up with the second bomb. You would have a mental health exclusion on this. So it's sometimes, it is worth going, you know what? I'm paying for 50,000. I know I can't get it right now. But in a year or 2, I will be back to that amount. Is it worthwhile? We're just carrying on paying for it as it is. That's really debatable. and it's a huge individual decision.

Julie Flynn [00:41:01]:

Mumm. And I would say really.

Kathryn Knowles [00:41:03]:

it's definitely a one to really think about if you have developed something which could be an exclusion. But then at the same point, anything can happen to anybody, you know, with any of these things, you certainly times where we've tried to do insurances for Poole. And it's that whole thing we've all experienced it as advisors and like, oh, well, I'll think about it. they come back in a couple of months. I really do need to set this up now because I've just been told I've got this. And you're like, unfortunately, that means it's changed things. Your prices gone up, or there's now an exclusion. And that's really, really hard to see, you know, because it's somebody that you've gotten to know, and you want them to put something in place. And I get frustrated sometimes when I see it on social media as well, I see advisers saying things like, oh, well, if you've done a good job, they all walk away with everything the first time you've spoken to them kind of thing. And I get really frustrated with that because all that, you know, everybody can afford, you know, life insurance, critical illness, and income protection. And I think sometimes people as advisors, they're not sometimes in in the reality of the fact that sometimes £5 a month is too much for Poole. you know, and, you know, even if we, you know, we need to make sure that we're making it affordable for Poole. And especially for the long term, but if you do have a policy, and something's changing and you think you need to change it, it is always a good idea to get advice because a lot of the time, with the advice, you can often still keep something, and it'd be worthwhile rather than just having to completely shut it all down. And, again, there's been times that people have come said, well, I've closed this down because this happened, and I'm like, get that set back up right now. You know, I'm just like, we're not messing about, you know, we'll have a nice chat. I can't do anything for you right in a sense. So I can do stuff, but it's not exactly what you want. You need that policy setting back up,

Julie Flynn [00:42:48]:

and that's what needs to happen. I've got another question. This one's for a friend. Okay. I e me. Okay. I was thinking, have I got a bit of an iPhone with that? You know, it's good. Gave the game away there. Right. So I've got income protection. I have those 2 common exclusions on it. I've got exclusion for mental health and exclusion for back because I've confessed to the sciatica, haven't I? I haven't been to the doctor. I haven't had any treatment. I haven't been on any medication for about 10 years. Yeah. So made it be an option that I go back out to the market?

Kathryn Knowles [00:43:19]:

Absolutely.

Julie Flynn [00:43:20]:

And try again and get a policy that doesn't have those exclusions. And or is there a case for me going to my existing insurance going, hello? Hello? You

Kathryn Knowles [00:43:30]:

can't sell times, but it's I was going to say with exclusions, as an adviser, one of the things that we always try and do is say to them, can you make this review of all this exclusion? because sometimes if there's an exclusion, it just goes with an exclusion. That's it. So we do sometimes say we want to make it reviewable. and we can try and push for that. We don't always get it. So a lot of the time, if there's an exclusion on those on there, but it is always worth asking. And what I would say is if you've not had any symptoms of back pain and things like that, know, depending upon sometimes it comes down to occupation as well. But, you know, sometimes if we're maybe 5 years since any kind of symptoms -- Am I a high-risk occupation, Kathryn? As a financial adviser, you are class 2.

Julie Flynn [00:44:12]:

Okay.

Kathryn Knowles [00:44:13]:

Okay. So anybody who works in the advice space is seen as a class 2 occupation. And that is to do stress. I was guessing it was the mental health 1. It is the mental health, but also as well, there is a little bit of a musculoskeletal thing in it. So we're often our desks. We're not moving around much during the day. What's that kind of doing to our bodies long term, things like that, but it is usually to do more, like, with the fact that we're in pressure environments and things like that. a lot of people are. so always worth asking. And, yeah, if you've got about with the mental health, it just depends sometimes. So, like, if there's been a bit of bereavement, that's not lasted long, if it has been, a stress situation, which was incredibly reactive to a situation that it would be feasible that anybody would have been stressed during that time. then, you know, when maybe a couple of years, you know, we can maybe be going, okay. You know, we can maybe see if there's not going to be a mental health exclusion on this. but it really, really just depend upon the individual. And I do work very specifically with people in the mental health space. And I think What's important to know is that there's lots of aspects to mental health as with anybody with mental health or no, and any single one of those can change the decision. And sometimes as well, it's not the questions that we see on the insurance applications and always everything the insurer wants to know. So when you speak with an adviser, they should ideally be asking you quite a lot of in questions, only things relevant to the Poole. Never anything that's irrelevant because that would be, obviously, completely wrong. but you might sometimes, like, especially people speak to me, I will ask them questions that answer on the insurance policy because I'm looking for the things that might end up with the insurers wanting to know about it just so I can double check from the start, like any kind of background questions or follow-up questions that might come. That's because you're like a ninja at this stuff. I'm on here. Absolutely. That's it. Come on. We've got a list. Yes. I'll know.

Julie Flynn [00:46:16]:

Alright, Michelle. Well, is there anything that you would like to ask Kathryn?

Michelle [00:46:21]:

Just taking it all in because actually, on it, you know, it's slightly different. I've just actually set up a critical illness policy for me. My next move is my income protection. which I have problems with because I'd had a few hospital visits, visits, really well. but it's just interesting to see, you know, how it's done. And I think for anyone out there who I've had friends who said to me, I've tried to get insurance, and I've been it just, you know, declined. So I'm never going to get it. Actually, just to get people to go and speak to other insurers, go and speak to an adviser and actually see what else is out there, but it isn't just that one. ensure that it's making the decision on everything. There are possibilities people can go and explore either on their own or with an advisor if things are slightly more difficult. know, I'm an adviser. I've just done mine, and I've got an exclusion on all my critical illness. I had a feeling that was coming. I knew. And I, you know, I think I would in sort of 4, 5 years' time go back and revisit that. But it's just really interesting for you because I So many clients even say, okay. Don't even look at that. I I've been declined before, so let's just leave it.

Kathryn Knowles [00:47:27]:

Yes. Yeah. You do get that. And I think, you know, and say we generally help people who've had been in that situation. And I think I get we get a real mixed majority of people I speak to are just so desperate to get something and they saw eager to wanting to get something that they're prepared to do it. And then you do get some people who are just sort of, well, a traditional point of accounts. And then there's others who are just downright angry. You know, they're really ticked off at the insurance world, and every single one of them is such different approach that you need to take to support them. And I think in terms of, you know, people say declines, you know, and things, what I do is me as an adviser, and this obviously comes down to my personality, is I just generally say to Poole, well, I'm looking, you know, kind of thing. You know, you say you don't want this, That's fine. But for me, for my compliance for my company, I am going to be looking, and I will be saying to you, right, based upon your circumstances, this could be possible. And it might have an exclusion. You might say, right. Well, it's not possible for me because I'm going to have an exclusion. It's like, well, I'm going to have a look. Yes. There is an exclusion. That doesn't mean the policy is possible, it just means it doesn't fit what that person feels is right, but I've still done my job, and I've still said to them, This is what is going to happen. I will be showing you options. You then pick and choose what's right for you.

Michelle [00:48:46]:

The one thing I struggle with when we talk about insurance is Poole, and I explain to clients every day. And, you know, and we put it in place for ourselves. We legally have to ensure a car. Yeah. So we have a car outside, and we legally have to insure that car. And if we don't, we can be prosecuted, you know, to call. I don't actually understand the mindset of why we don't have something there that that makes us trigger and go. Actually, let's ensure ourselves. We ensure that car that's outside that may be worth, you know, for some people, £500 or Poole worth 10, you know, tens of 1000 a pound. Why would we not do that?

Kathryn Knowles [00:49:23]:

It's silly, isn't it? There is quite a bit of space. there's quite a lot of discussion at the moment, so that's why I work in quite a few hours of protection. So personal, which is what you've done, Michelle, which is setting up a policy for yourself for your own life. I work in business, which is where the parties are set up for your company, and I also work on some of the group space, which is also a company based, but it's where you ensure a group of individuals. So, like, the majority of the employees in a thing in a company. And there is quite a bit of discussion at the moment about whether or not and that most people would notice this death and service cover, and they would probably recognize that as maybe an employee perk or enhanced sick pay, which would be group income protection. And there are lots of debates happening, especially with trade bodies in our industry and governments as to whether or not things like death and service cover should become this actually needs to happen. You know, companies can't just, in a sense, pick and choose that make it statutory. Making kind of statutory. And there's pros and cons to that. So we wouldn't just all just rush into that straight away. I, obviously, I to your door that kind of cover I have in my own company. I recommend and advise people to have it. so it is just a matter of you know, sort of knowing where to look, but as you say, is that mindset of sometimes? because it is a it's for me sometimes it's a mindset of that thing of, like, well, I'm going to show my pet legally we don't need to do, you know, but I'm going to show my pets because if they ever need to have an operation, it's going to cost me $5, but we don't show ourselves in good, but that would be a thirty pound each year

Julie Flynn [00:50:55]:

if I don't show myself. I think a lot of this comes down to trust, and I don't mean in the obvious way we don't trust insurance companies. But it's just like pet insurance is fairly straightforward and simple to organize and put in place. just we've just had to talk, like, 45 minutes explaining to protection. So it is it is complex, and that makes it harder to be able trust it because when we don't understand something, that's a big barrier to get over. Isn't that?

Kathryn Knowles [00:51:25]:

It is. And that's why, I mean, in terms of the, in the protection insurance world, you have life insurance, critical illness cover, and income protection. Any other insurance sits within general insurance, the kind of different departments of the insurance and with life and critical life insurance is the most sold out of anything.

Julie Flynn [00:51:41]:

Kind of simple.

Kathryn Knowles [00:51:42]:

Yeah. It's simple because and, also, it's simple to understand because it's a case of there's not much debate when it comes to a claim. You're either dead or you're not, you know, kind of thing. It's pretty straightforward. There can be debates but the majority of the time there isn't debates. Critical illness cover, that is often combined with life insurance. It’s kind of naturally fits on also, it's got those main things in there. The majority of the time, people are really worried about cancer. Critical illness cover, it stands out. It's usually at least 50 conditions. and you've got cancer in there. People automatically tend to go to that they've most people have had somebody that they know who's had the condition and not had a pleasant time. So, you know, it's kind of all fits in quite nicely. Income protection is the lowest is the most undersold out of all of them. and that comes down to a mixture of things. It does come to the fact that if you're not an adviser, there was, as you say, there is beautiful how much you can tweak it because it means that actually you can't find that more people can be insured for income protection and critical illness cover because there's so many different options. But that's the thing. There are so many options. If you don't understand it and move, I'm really big on the idea of trying to get this into the schools and things like that. I'm just trying to explain to people. Right? You need to if you give me this little bit of money, I'll protect you for all this money, does that sound good? You know, obviously, kids are going to go, yeah. You know, absolutely. They're going to do it. So let's get it to them. It's a really, really young age, but again, with Chris Connell's cover, it's quite simple. You've got 50 conditions there. You either have it core or enhanced. So you get, like, the main version or the extra special with sparkles on top version. And that's it. Whereas with income protection, as we already said, I think it's like at least 5 different things. that we need to think about and consider and things like that. But essentially, if you are going to go and do an income protection quotation for yourself, What I would be suggesting is that you go for the maximum amount to start off with, go for the maximum amount that you can insure yourself each month. Go to your state pension age, which for a lot of people around their twenties, thirties now are around the age of sixty-eight. It might be 67 for some people who are older, but we're around 68 is. You want it. there'll be something in there called the deferred period. And that's why I was, again, the jargon. That's why I was saying before about how long you need to be ill before the financial side kicks in because there's lots of stuff that can happen before the money kicks in, they can provide you a lot of support of the rights in that. Now what you need to do is make sure that doesn't clash with your sick pay. So we're not talking statutory sick pay. So if you get, 4 weeks bill pay and 4 weeks half pay, you don't want your income protection policy. to be less, you know, to be to be paying you before 4 weeks because the insurer won't pay out. You'll pay for if you went for a 1-day policy, you'd pay for one day because that's what you've chosen, but the insurer won't give you money until 4 weeks because you've already got your income. It's still coming from your employer. So another example is 6 months. you get full 6 months. It's really common in the public sector, especially the NHS. You get 6, 4 months, 6, 4 months sick pay. So you wouldn't want your income protection policy kicking in before 26 weeks. There's a bit of an added complication for, NHS sick pay, so I won't go into that because it's a bit too technical. but there's just extra things. But, again, the shorter it is, the more expensive it is, but just make sure it lines up pretty sick pay. If you don't get any sick pay, go for a 4-week opportunity and see what that pricing is. The other 2 things, do it on a guaranteed premium, see what it looks like. Does it feel affordable? then the last one is make sure how long it's going to pay out for. Some policies, and again, these will look cheaper. We'll pay out for 1 year per claimable events. 2 years, 5 years, per claimable events, all the way to retirement age, what you ideally wanted to know all the way to retirement age option. And with those other ones, just to be clear, so I was really clear to say, like, 2 years per claim of all events. So let's say, such would have had happened, but let's say you had cancer, and you're off work for a year and a half, it'll pay for that year and a half until you're back to work. And then if the policy will carry on, and the next time you make need to make a claim, you would have another 2 years potentially that it would claim for, but it would stop at the 2-year mark. So if you did get something like Parkinson's and it was progressive, it would pay for 2 years, but then it would stop it.

Julie Flynn [00:56:07]:

Alright. Alright. No. No. That's really good. I'm glad you cover that. Oh my god. I can't believe how much information we've covered in sort of such a short space of time, Kathryn. That is absolutely growing. Michelle is there anything that you would like to add? as we kind of weighing things up.

Michelle [00:56:23]:

Now the only thing I'd like to add is that people explore it. People go and look. Mhmm. because it is so important. We give counts to people all the time, and it is based on people's income. It's on an assumption that that income will carry on for a number of years. So to me, it is one of the most valuable things we can do. So it's just to say to people go and explore, go, and see. And if you do need to, you know, further advice, go and find an adviser that can help you.

Julie Flynn [00:56:49]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I think the big giveaway is if advisors have got it, that’s normally a clue that it's quite a good thing to have. Right. And I got it years ago, and then I let it go. Then I realized what stupid thing that was. And I went to get some more, but the relief I had when a phone that I'd been accepted Okay. I've got my 2 exclusions, but the utter relief that I managed to give myself some income protection back was like, few. So, so Kathryn thank you very much for joining us and sharing with us your barb wire baseball bat analogy of why you need income protection. I don't think you're going to get that on any other podcast folks.

Kathryn Knowles [00:57:29]:

Michelle, thank you for joining me. You know, we should be saying that. And I'm just like, well, that was just nattering.

Julie Flynn [00:57:35]:

Now it's perfect. It's created a visual image and everybody's like the cash point in the garden now. So what we what we want you to do is go away and have a think about the cash point in your garden and ask yourself what are you going to do to protect it? So it just remains for me to say thank you, Kathryn. Thank you. Thank you, Michelle. And thank you to the listeners for listening. And until next time, take care of yourselves.