108. Money & House Renovations with Susan Francombe - the Biking Building Barrister

In this episode we're joined by Susan, the Biking Building Barrister. We're cutting through the jargon and sharing loads of tips to protect your money and your home.

Areas Covered:
- Difference between a quote Vs estimate
- How much if any deposit should you pay
- Handling paying for materials
- Finding reliable builders and tradespeople through trusted trader lists
- Setting ground rules with builders and effective communication

Guest Expert: Susan Francombe, also known as the Biking Building Barrister, is an experienced professional in the construction industry for over 30 years. With a background as both an engineer and a lawyer, she has developed a deep understanding of the intricacies of the field. With her vast expertise, Susan strives to provide valuable insights and guidance to clients in these area
5 Top legal tips for property renovation  | Trades without Trauma

YOUR HOST

Julie Flynn is an experienced independent financial adviser and financial coach. Justice and equality drive Julie. Which is why she’s spent years studying and researching how stress affects our financial decision making.

Julie is best known for her work with women who have lost their partner and coaching financial services business who want to implement fair and transparent charges.
Ebb & Flow Financial Coaching | Bree Wealth & Tax | Instagram

CO-HOSTS
Emily Pool is a Financial Planner and Will Writer. She is passionate about empowering people to invest their wealth (pensions and savings) sustainably and in line with their personal values.

Michelle Lambell  started her career in financial services as a Stockbroker in 1999 undertaking both advisory and discretionary investment management. Today she is a Chartered Financial Planner, specialising in retirement planning advice, pensions and investments and a Certified Financial Coach.

Sara Walker is a financial planner and financial coach with 33 years’ experience in financial services. She wants all women to feel financially confident and uses her professional and life experiences to support and educate women over 40 so they in turn feel able to support and be role models for the younger women in their lives.

Jennifer O'Neil is a mortgage and protection specialist and director of Athena Mortgages. Having been in the industry since 2014 Jennifer decided to set up a company in 2020 that suited her core values as a broker – integrity, service, honesty and continuous improvement.
LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook

Transcript

welcome back to this episode of the Women and Money Cafe. Now today on the sofa, I've got worth me my trusty co pilot, Emily, how are you today, Emily?

Emily [00:00:19]:

I'm sort of a bit under the weather, Julie, but I'm going to battle through.

Julie [00:00:22]:

Alright. Well, you look after yourself and keep stepping on the lens set.

Susan [00:00:27]:

But

Julie [00:00:27]:

we've got a guest with us today. Now I'm not I'm not going to play it cool. I think the guest is really bloody cool. Right? Okay. We have got Susan Francombe with us today, who is known as the baking barrister. Susan is so cool, and she's come along to answer all kinds of questions that you're going to love but first off. Susan, welcome to the podcast.

Susan [00:00:47]:

Thank you very much. And actually, it's the Biking building barrister. But Oh. Right. So now

Julie [00:00:55]:

that you've corrected me on my intro, do you want to just tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, Susan?

Susan [00:01:01]:

Okay. Well, I'm Susan Francombe, the Biking Building Barrister, and I've worked in the construction industry for over 30 years as both an engineer and A lawyer. And I now work as an independent consultant, speaker, and adjudicator. So that's a bit like judge Judy or judge Rinder for building disputes. And, yeah. So that's what I do. And one of the things that I'm interested in is how People feel about the building industry, particularly when it comes to their own projects, their own home renovations, and also their investments. If people Buying to flip properties or do them up or rent them.

Susan [00:01:40]:

And all we hear in the news is about bad builders, things going wrong, people losing money, the time, money, and stress that they waste. And that really annoys me because we've got thousands of fantastic builders and traders working in the industry. So I want to try and make things a bit better, and that's one of my passions about the building industry.

Julie [00:02:02]:

Alright. That's fantastic. That's great interest. So the banking building barrister. Right? I will remember that. It's just BBB, isn't it? Yeah. You've got it for crying out loud. You've got it on your hoodie, but I can see.

Julie [00:02:15]:

Like, we're not that out, Julie. Oh, well, everybody's a smart ass now, aren't they, after the event? No. But I'm really glad that you joined us today because we've had a couple of conversations, and I think you're just on a ton of information that our listeners would probably find helpful. I think it's when we first got talking, it was about it was all these little things. Like, if we're getting work in the house, if we're getting renovations done, if we're getting extensions done, or like you said, if we've got property as an investment. And, you know, when I was saying to you, We don't know what we don't know. And like if we're getting work done on the house or we're getting an extension or something, it's quite likely it's the 1st time we've done it. Or maybe it's the 2nd time we've done we've done this.

Julie [00:02:56]:

We don't have extensive experience of these things. So it's like, how are we meant to know what we need to know? How do we go out there and Find that information because it's a bit like I suppose it's a bit like financial service. It's just loaded with jargon Yeah. Which your average person Isn't up for understanding. So I'm hoping you're going to help us sort of navigate this minefield over the next 30 minutes.

Susan [00:03:21]:

Yeah. Well, that that's part of the problem is it is the jargon that people talk. And also it's very easy to pull them all over people's eyes, you know. You can say, Suck your teeth and look at a roof and say, oh, yes. You need a lower left grudger on that, and you haven't a clue what that means and whether A made up word like that is real or not. It that's part of the problem, the technical side of things. One of the big issues with that is, Damp and condensation. There's normally a cause for that, but a lot of people try and sell you a process or a way to resolve it Without actually solving the underlying problem.

Susan [00:03:56]:

So what I try and do is talk to people and look at the options and help them to understand. So one of my clients is a is a chap. He's rang me up 4 times now, and I love him because he, he found my name in the Sunday Times referred in an article. And he just rang me up and he said, I've got 3 quotes from these people for work in my house and I don't know what to do. And I just sat and chatted to him for about 15 minutes And he was in tears. This is a big, grown man in tears because he felt it was the first time that he could actually talk to someone About the problem and not be laughed at or people take the Mickey out of him or you know? And the fact that I understood and I could give him some advice. There's a big demand there for people who can help you, and that's something that I try and do. And there's no such thing as a stupid question.

Susan [00:04:44]:

That's the other thing. You shouldn't be afraid to ask. And if you don't like the answers you're getting, then that particular builder or trader is not for you. And the other thing that I if I had a pound for every time somebody said to me, where do I get a trader or a builder from? I will be in the Bahamas somewhere now. I won't be on your. And that's another good one. And then there's a tip that I always give people. You see all these adverts for, trust of this and find of that and all the rest of them.

Susan [00:05:11]:

But what you might not realize is those companies actually get paid by the people on their panel. So there's they say they check them and everything else, and I'm sure they do, but there's an incentive there to get more people on their panels. But if you go to your local authority website, their trading standards, most local authorities in the UK We'll have a web page called, they normally call it trusted trader or something like that. Not to be confused with any other websites, It's the local government website. And on there, they will have a list of traders that have signed up with Trading Standards. Now I think it's highly unlikely that if they get a lot of complaints about a particular trader, that they're going to keep them on their books. So for me, that's always the 1st starting point, and it's free to use as well. Have a look at those is always my advice for the 1st starting point.

Susan [00:06:00]:

So that's a free tip for you there.

Julie [00:06:02]:

I think that's a brilliant top tip just to start with. And then I think You make the point that a lot of these websites are the point of them is to be monetized.

Susan [00:06:12]:

Yes. And there's nothing wrong with that in principle. But as I say, you just need to be wary. And the same with, you know, if you go online and you ask people for, my favourite one. Obviously, everyone says the best thing you can do is get a recommendation from someone you know that's used them. And the keywords there are someone that has used them because people are often say, oh, yes. So and so is really good or my friends use them and they're very good. But You don't always get the truth that way.

Susan [00:06:42]:

You really need to make sure they've actually used them because, I I've got a friend of mine, Louise, bless her, Who wanted, some work done on our house, which was basically just replacing 2 windows with 1 large one. And a friend of hers said, oh, I know someone who's really good. He's just done my bathroom. Fantastic. So, she used him, and, unfortunately, he had never replaced windows before in his life. Didn't quite know what he was doing. And when she went to the bathroom in the middle of the night after it started work, the walls were wobbling, because he'd taken the windows out and hadn't really supported the walls properly. So that was a bit of a worry.

Susan [00:07:18]:

And, yeah. And it turned out that, what it was, it was her friend was his was A friend was married to him and her friend was telling her how wonderful he was, but she's his wife. So she hadn't actually seen his work and, yeah, apparently, it was awful and, yeah, a bit of a mess. But yeah. So if you're going to get personal rec recommendations, that's great, But make sure that the person's doing the recommendation has actually used them and is happy with the work that they've done. Because lots of people recommend people and, Yeah. It's all sort of hearsay as us lawyers like to say.

Julie [00:07:55]:

Yeah. Emily, you've got a question here for us, haven't you?

Emily [00:07:57]:

Yeah. I was just going to say, Susan, that, In the world of financial planning, we've got this website called Vouched form. We go out and get lots of client feedback from people, and that's how people can verify that we're really good at what we do. Just wondered if there's anything like that.

Susan [00:08:12]:

Well, the government trading scheme that I mentioned, That has feedback from clients. Oh, that's great. So that's why that's a good one because I used someone I actually got our garage doors replaced, And I use that for to get the person to do that. And after the work was completed, I got a form from the council to fill in to say what I thought about them.

Emily [00:08:33]:

Yeah. There's nothing like the client review to give you that sort of social proof. Yeah.

Susan [00:08:38]:

Yeah. So that's why I always recommend them. Yeah. You have to bear in mind that places like Google and Facebook and all that, all the reviews there are quite often done by friends or family. So, you have to take them with a pinch of salt. And equally, if you see some with bad reviews, it could well be, somebody that doesn't like them that's done the review. So it's, Yeah. You just got to be a bit, take things with a pinch of salt, unfortunately.

Julie [00:09:01]:

You do you do diligence, haven't you?

Susan [00:09:03]:

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Julie [00:09:04]:

Okay. I'm going to throw out throw out a quick top tip as well from our side as well. So Emily's mentioned Voucher for there, which is like where you can go and hunt for your little financial a should you want 1.

Emily [00:09:15]:

Yeah. When you go into

Julie [00:09:16]:

the Vouchedfor website, there's a little box that says verified by vouchedfor. If you untick that Yeah. We'll get all of the financial advisers, not just the ones that paid vouchedfor to be present. So that's a way to beat the system. That's a little hack from me on vouchedfor. Right. So we're hacking all the systems, and we're giving away all the top tips so far today with Susan and Emily.

Emily [00:09:36]:

I

Julie [00:09:36]:

think I've got a list of questions here that I wanted to ask you about, Susan. I think I think that was a good one. You talked about getting recommendations on how to find a trader. So it's like making sure somebody's actually Done the work for the person that's recommended them.

Susan [00:09:49]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Julie [00:09:50]:

You don't think it went through my head as well is just checking what the heck the work was? Because, you know, in your example, the guy had done a bathroom for someone and then he's replacing a window. And I'm going, what have those 2 things got in common? Like, replacing a bathroom, replacing a window screen, there's very different kinds

Susan [00:10:07]:

of jobs. Well, the connect the connection was that it was the bar the replacement windows were in a bathroom. That

Julie [00:10:13]:

That strikes me as how tenuous.

Susan [00:10:16]:

Yeah. Well, he was doing some other work in the bathroom. Well, what it was, she wanted someone to have her bathroom replaced. Right. And the windows were part of that work. Right. But to her mind and, again, this is I I'm not decrying her for this because this is how people think. I'm getting the bathroom done.

Susan [00:10:30]:

All the works in the bathroom will be done by someone that does bathrooms. Now if you've got a good bathroom person, They can do a window. I mean, I I've I had a I'll shower him redone, and the bathroom company that I used are very good, And they replaced the villa's window in the bathroom. Now I've got no problem with that because I know that I know knew they were good. But there's some you know, That was part of the work. So as far as she was concerned, that was just another part of the works. The fact that he didn't know how to replace windows is, you know, I hope. Yeah.

Emily [00:11:02]:

Okay. I bet if anyone does any work for you, Susan, that does it so well, meticulously. They know what's going to be the.

Susan [00:11:09]:

I well, I'm lucky. I've got some good trainers. My plaster is absolutely brilliant. But and this is the thing. Even Somewhat like me, I have to say, I actually got called out myself. I ordered, some gates to be made, And I got caught out because it cut a long story short, it was a bit of a dodgy dealing to say anyway. I think these guys were Passing themselves off for somebody else, but there we go. So I paid a deposit for these gates to be made, and the dates kept Passing and the dates get passing, and I'm thinking there's something not right here.

Susan [00:11:48]:

And basically, the chaps did a run on with my money, and it turns out money of Lots of other people. Let's just say it took me 3 years and making the guy bankrupt, but I got my money back.

Emily [00:12:01]:

Well done.

Susan [00:12:02]:

And that but that's what you face, and that's the problem that and that's you know, that only happened because there were so many of us that got ripped off. We managed to, you know, club together and get it sorted. But that's the problem that you face. If somebody does rip you off, it is incredibly difficult to get your money back. So that's why it's better to get it right in the 1st place and that's why I sort of teach people what I do about making sure that they get the various steps in place Before they start the work. Because when you come to me and it's gone wrong, it's too late. The chance you know, it's too late. Let's get things right in the 1st place.

Susan [00:12:36]:

Let's just set things up properly. And probably 90% of the disputes that I deal with could have been prevented if you either set the project up properly in the 1st place or you run it properly as it goes along. And I see a lot of people, things start to go wrong on the job and they leave it. They're like, oh, no. It'll get better next week. It'll get better next week. Or, Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Susan [00:12:56]:

He just wants a bit more money now. I'll pay them now. And then at the end of it, it's all gone horribly wrong. We've paid lots of money. The job's no good. And you're like, well, why did you leave it for 6 months? You know, if you Sorted it out 6 months ago. You know? It it'd either be better or you wouldn't be as badly off as you are now. So that's part of the problem.

Susan [00:13:14]:

It's just persuading people. You know, let let's sort things out properly in the in the beginning.

Julie [00:13:20]:

Okay. So that bring that leads me on nicely 2 of the questions I've got for you. So the 1st question I've got for you, and this came up with one of the conversations that you and I had, And it's kind of related around the jargon and how we start how we start off. And it's like The difference between a deposit and what's the other one that's escaped me right now?

Susan [00:13:47]:

Yes. Quotation and That's that. Yeah. No. It's a quotation and, An estimate? An estimate. That's the word. Yes. Sorry.

Julie [00:13:55]:

Could you could you talk us through how we might hear those 3 words used with regards to getting work done on the house and what they all mean?

Susan [00:14:03]:

Yeah. Another thing is VAT as well because people get caught out on that as well. So, that's probably more your feel, but it popped up because it came up with something that somebody said to me Today. So you get things called quotations and you get things called estimates. And A lot of traders when I say traders, I'm talking about the people, you know, the fencers, the electricians, people like that, get called out because they use them interchangeably. But, legally, they have 2 different meanings. So an estimate is just that. So if I say to someone, can you come and give me an estimate for, say, cleaning my gutters? They can come along and say, yeah.

Susan [00:14:45]:

It'll be a £100. But that is an estimate. So that's not a fixed fee. So if they come along, look at the work, And, actually, somebody's dumped some concrete in the gutters or there's something that makes the work harder. They can come back to you and say, oh, you know, it's an estimate of £100, but it's actually going to cost you 300. That's an estimate. A quotation is a fixed fee. So if you get a quotation to clean your gutters, £100, that's a fixed fee.

Susan [00:15:11]:

That shouldn't Change. That shouldn't change unless there's a variation of some sort. So if you suddenly say, well, while you're up there, can you clean the roof as well or something like that, then that will be a But that's a fixed fee. So that's the difference between a quotation and an estimate. But be careful as I say because people use the words interchangeably. I've even had a I've had a recent dispute that I had to decide where one of the pieces of evidence was What was called the quotation or the estimate for the work. So it had quotation at the top, estimate at the bottom, and What is it? You know? So that that's part of the problem. So if you're not sure, always say, is this an estimate? Is this a quotation? And make sure you know what you're getting.

Susan [00:15:53]:

And what was the other word you used?

Julie [00:15:55]:

Perimenopause is gone.

Susan [00:15:57]:

Menopause. No. That's not the word you used.

Julie [00:16:00]:

We had the estimate of quoting

Susan [00:16:01]:

Yeah. Don't mention the word menopause to build as most of them will run them up. But yeah. That's

Julie [00:16:05]:

They'll ramp up the cost 20%. You're like, okay. I've got one of them.

Susan [00:16:09]:

Menopausal women, that's a 20% increase, Gene.

Julie [00:16:12]:

Yeah. Yeah. It'll come back to us. So I'll outset then. When you said estimate, what popped into my head was guesstimate. So they're going to come out. They're going to make a guess of what it's going to cost to do the work. Yeah.

Julie [00:16:26]:

And then Yeah. Uh-huh. And then once we've got sort of nailed down a price and they give me a quotation, that's almost like We're starting to enter into negotiation of terms.

Susan [00:16:37]:

Yeah. Well, again, negotiation of terms. What I always say to people for small for building work, so if you're having an extension, a loft conversion, Or even your self building or something, you know, something a bit meatier, shall we say. I always say you need a contract. You need a proper contract. And there are lots of contract I recommend the standard ones because us in the industry know what they mean. So you get things like, well, Federation of master builders have got a small works contract. Perfectly fine to use because at least it's, sort of plain simple language.

Susan [00:17:13]:

Ariba, the, architects, They have small contracts. Again, try and use simple language. JCT, which is an organization that does a lot of big construction projects, They also have homeowners contracts and things like that. So there's per lots of perfectly good contracts designed for small works. And what they do is just make sure you cover the basics And everything's in there. And that that's the key thing because if you don't cover the basics, then you get problems. But what happens is a lot of people for smaller jobs, Obviously, no nobody's going to sign up to a contract for some of the smaller jobs. So you have to make sure that in the quotation and in the information that you're changing are exactly what you want them to do.

Susan [00:17:54]:

And that that's the difference. So, yeah. So that that's the sort of thing that, Right.

Julie [00:18:01]:

Can I just check my understanding there then? So let's say it's me, and I don't know. I want all the back doors replaced. And somebody's come along. They've given me an estimate.

Susan [00:18:11]:

Want all what replaced? All

Julie [00:18:12]:

the back doors replaced. Someone's come along, give me an estimate. I'm like, okay. That's great. They've had then they've gone away, and they've come back to me with quotation. I'm like, well, could I have a contract as well, please? And they're like, no. We're not doing a contract.

Susan [00:18:23]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like me to say, go away. I don't want to do you. You're going to So what

Julie [00:18:27]:

I want is I want some kind of paper trail where it's set out setting out clearly what my expectations are, what they've said they're going to do, and what they've said they're going to charge me for it. And that's been almost like an implied contract.

Susan [00:18:38]:

Yeah. Yes. Basically, it is a contract. You can have a verbal contract.

Julie [00:18:41]:

Yeah.

Susan [00:18:41]:

Yeah. But, again, that that's a tricky one because trying to prove it is, so it's always worth so, I mean, there there's the few the key points, actually, I've, in the download that I think I've put together for you. I think there's something here about the key points that you need. But the key things that you need are, well, first of all, What works are? So what exactly do you want them to do? Have you got a drawing? Have you got a specification? Is there a particular make of door that you want? Because otherwise, you're just going to get trade standard. And if you particularly want a higher quality product, You're going to need to say that because that's going to fit the price. So what the works are is going to be the first one. Who are you dealing with is the next one. Because are you dealing with some trader? Somebody just doing the work themselves? Are you dealing with a limited company? Who are you paying your money to? All these things that you need to know who you're actually dealing with so that you know how to contact them and what to do if things go wrong.

Susan [00:19:44]:

So who is who is it was a good one. Quite often people use trading names that have no relation to their real name. And then if you ask them what their name is and they're a little bit yeah. That that's a warning sign. So you do need to know who you're dealing with. Time, you know, when do you need the works done by? Because again, If it's a small job, somebody will take on lots of little small jobs and fit them in between when they're doing other things. Now that's great because that might be better for you because it means you get a better price. But if they're fitting things in between other jobs, you might want it done as soon as possible.

Susan [00:20:19]:

They might be, I'll do it in a couple of months. So, again, you need to be clear. Is there a time issue on what you want? Money, again, is it a fixed price? Is it some people use daily rates. I've seen some people I they get a somebody in to build a wall, and they give them a daily rate. And then it's like, well, hang on a minute. It's taken him a week, And he's you know, is that right? And the price is going up? So you need to think about how you're going to pay for the works and how you're going to value it.

Julie [00:20:45]:

Emily, you look like you've got a question there for us.

Emily [00:20:48]:

Oh, yes. You just reminded me of something when I was about 8 months pregnant and also had a toddler in the house. And we were doing our kitchen in our old house. And We're in the middle of fitting the kitchen, and we found out that we had to move the boilers. We moved the boiler, and there was a massive hole behind it. And so we were told we needed to get plasters in. So we got some plasters in, and they charged us a day rate. And they came, 2 of them.

Emily [00:21:15]:

It took them about an hour or so to fill this hole. And rather than just leave, they just stood there in the kitchen talking to all of the other people working for us. And I said, oh, oh, well, if you're still here and I paid you for the day, I've got a bit of wall over here that also needs plastering. And he just looked at me while I was he was drinking the tea that I'd given him and just sitting there standing there, chat, chat, chatting. No. Oh, no, love. No, love. We came to do that bit there.

Emily [00:21:44]:

We've done that. Might as well. If you've done that, Then you can go, and you can leave my other trainers alone, please. But, you know, frankly, you've made me pay a day rate for something that's taking you an hour. You're not going to give me any of your more of your time. I was so cross. 

Susan [00:22:02]:

Yeah. And If I was that trader, put my hat on, I'd be like, well, I'm not doing any work for her again. Right. Well But what you have to what you have to realize is that, Yeah. It only took him an hour to do that work. But if you've agreed for him to do that work and a day right, It's not like unless he said to you, yeah. That job will take 2 hours.

Julie [00:22:28]:

No.

Susan [00:22:28]:

Yeah. You've agreed a day rate for him to come for the day to fix the problem. If he does it quickly. If you come to me, for example, say you've got a problem, with a construction contractor, a building contractor or something, and you come to me And I say to you, okay. Well, I can solve that problem, and I'm going to charge you £200. And I solved that problem for you in a minute. Are you going to say, hang on a minute. I want some money back because that was too quick.

Susan [00:22:55]:

You already knew the answer. That's the way you've got to look at it. The guy's on a day rate. He's going to you know, you've agreed for him to come for a for a day, basically, on a day rate. If he's done it quickly, well, You've agreed the price for the job at the day rate.

Emily [00:23:09]:

So we shouldn't have agreed the day rate, basically. But the thing is

Susan [00:23:12]:

Well, that that that's the thing is that that's what I'd normally say is if you're going to agree a day rate, you have to accept roughly how long the jobs you know? And if they're going to charge you for a day I mean, I'll give you a different example. I once had some work done on a porch roof, and, the guys and I knew how long it was, and he said, oh, it's going to take me an hour, and I'll charge you an hourly rate of x. That's fine. Now he turned up, Went up on the ladder on the roof and then come back down and said I've brought the wrong ladder. So he went off, got another ladder and came back, And then it went over the hour. So he sent me a bill for 2 hours. I didn't pay that because it's not my fault he turned up with the wrong bloody letter. That's the difference.

Susan [00:23:55]:

That's a that's a different situation. So but if you're agreeing a day rate, you have to expect that they're going to charge you for that full day whether they're there all day or not. K. I

Emily [00:24:05]:

think that's cheeky. I think it wouldn't wash in the world of financial planning. What do you

Julie [00:24:09]:

think, Judy? Well, this it's the question whether you want to pay an hourly rate for financial planner.

Susan [00:24:16]:

Well, some

Emily [00:24:17]:

people don't do that, don't they? No. But what I

Julie [00:24:20]:

was wondering then is because I know nothing about this, Susan. Is there a circumstance or can you think of an example where a day rate would be a good way to

Susan [00:24:30]:

k. What a day rate, sorry, would?

Julie [00:24:32]:

Would be a good way to pay.

Susan [00:24:34]:

Oh, yeah. If you if you don't know exactly so Say, for example, if you are digging out foundations or you're testing, sometimes before you get the planning permission, you have to do sort of dig down and work out the depth the foundations that are needed. And for that, you need to dig down and see what the ground's like underneath. And a lot of that's to do with where the water table is and perhaps where Clay, is what whatever the foundations are built on the earth. So you could be lucky and dig down a little bit and find perfectly good ground for your foundations, Or you could need to dig down a whole lot further.

Julie [00:25:08]:

Right.

Susan [00:25:08]:

So with something like that, you don't know exactly how much of the work you're going to need. And therefore, you know, so a day rate for something like that, somebody out for the day with a digger because you don't know how much you're going to need.

Emily [00:25:22]:

Alright. And then I've got another question

Julie [00:25:24]:

for you. So let's say I've got the builders starting, and I'm talking to them about my doors and all the stuff I want doing out back. And they're saying to me they're offering me a day rate. Can I turn around and say, do you know what? I would prefer a fixed fee.

Emily [00:25:36]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie [00:25:38]:

So they can come at us with the daily rates, but we can turn around and say, Don't like daily rates. Just quote me a fixed fee for the project.

Susan [00:25:45]:

Yeah. Day daily rates are good if it's something where you're not quite sure exactly what work's required.

Emily [00:25:51]:

Right?

Susan [00:25:52]:

If it's a if it's a particular item of work so, for example, with your plastering, that should have been you know? But, again, they probably would've just given you the same amount of money for a day, right, anyway, charged you for that.

Emily [00:26:04]:

Yeah. So The point was that they knew that We needed to get the whole filled in order for our kitchen to move on. Exactly. Problem. Yeah.

Susan [00:26:12]:

Yeah. But, yeah, if you'd asked them for a fixed Price for that. They probably would have given you the price for those, but

Julie [00:26:17]:

the same number. Yeah. Exactly.

Susan [00:26:19]:

So I think, you know, so I can see you getting annoyed because hang on, I'm paying a whole day, and it's only taking you, what, an hour. But, really, the cost is what it is. And I think, you know

Emily [00:26:32]:

And I think it was more annoying the fact that they were just standing there talking to all of the other tradesmen and stopping them doing their job. But at the same time

Susan [00:26:40]:

Yeah. You know,

Emily [00:26:40]:

they should have just left.

Julie [00:26:42]:

Alright. So that brings me

Susan [00:26:43]:

on Get off get off my end.

Julie [00:26:46]:

Tell her. Exactly. I've got another question for you then, Susan. Okay. And I know this is I know this is a thing for people because I've had my clients talk to me about it. So you've you think you've found your perfect builder, the builder that you want to entrust You're home too. And they've given they've come out with the quotes, estimates, whatever you want to call them, and it's all looking good. Then we get to the conversation about money.

Julie [00:27:06]:

Yeah. About do we pay a deposit? Do we pay for materials? How much should we pay upfront? Could you just talk us through with your years of experience and expertise? Give us give us the things that we need to know to be able to handle that conversation with builders, please.

Susan [00:27:22]:

Yeah. Well, the It really yeah. It's a tricky one at the moment because builders and traders are hard to come by at the moment. So a lot of people are just, hey. Great. I've got someone and will agree whatever they come up with. There is no fixed rule in the building industry about what you do, but here's a few things. So when it comes to money up front, particularly on smaller jobs, There at the moment, there's a bit of a trend of people booking people in for smaller jobs and then cancelling at the last minute, you know, whether it's financial or whatever.

Susan [00:28:00]:

So some traders have started asking for a deposit up front. Now I don't think that's too unreasonable because they're booking you know, particularly at the moment, Very busy. Put it asking for a bit of money up front as a deposit almost effectively to hold the date is to me, you won't I'm seeing a lot more of that at the moment. But bear in mind, that should just be a deposit. It shouldn't be I want 50% of the money upfront just to book me in. Yeah? So if you're asked for that, be clear what the deposit is for. Is it just to hold the time, or is it 50, you know, bit of money towards the actual cost of the project? Because if you end up cancelling it, are you going to get that deposit back? So those are the sort of questions you need to think about. When it comes to materials, I've actually got somebody coming next week to fit a new front door and a back door for me.

Julie [00:28:52]:

Right.

Susan [00:28:54]:

They ordered the materials because through their trade contracts, they've got really good quality doors for me. But I paid for the doors, and they've been delivered to my house. So I hoist those materials myself, and I've paid for them. Obviously, he's done sorted all the paperwork out on the order. Now that's great because I know this guy very well, so I know he's not good. But if he'd Done a runner or went bust or something like that, and I've paid him for those doors and he hasn't paid the supplier. I'm how do I get my money back? So if it's materials that are particularly expensive, one thing you can do is say, well, you order them and I will Pay for them in my name and get them delivered to my house and then you've got them. That's one thing that you can do.

Susan [00:29:43]:

What else? So we're talking about deposits, aren't we? And Yes. Yeah. And sometimes people will ask for money up front. I am a little bit not keen on that. I say a little bit of money to reserve the work, but paying a lot of money up front. Now most builders and traders will have accounts with material suppliers. So they'll get, you know, 30 days to pay or something like that. So I'm always a little bit worried about paying up too much money up front.

Susan [00:30:13]:

So if they do ask you I mean, I've had somebody, did some book work Once and they asked for 30% upfront and I asked why. And they just said, well, that's what our standard terms. And I managed to get them to take that off Because when they realized what I did for a living. So, yeah, you know, you can you can negotiate, but, just sort of ask Be comfortable. If I'm paying up money up front, what happens if they disappear? So, you know, think about how much you're paying up front. Yeah. I'm a bit worried about it.

Julie [00:30:43]:

So I've actually got 1 particular client and may know when I ask you this question. So what you were saying, like, A deposit to hold the space. Okay. That's okay. And it should be, like, 50%.

Susan [00:30:54]:

Yeah. Well, I think it's okay. But Some to me, it's understandable. What's reasonable? So, like, my plasterer, he only worked part time because he looks after the kids. He picks the kids up from school, takes them to work while his message is off. So he just works short hours. So if he turns around and asks for a deposit to hold, you know, a week's work or something. That's fine because that's a genuine because otherwise, he loses a week's work.

Emily [00:31:18]:

Oh, no.

Julie [00:31:19]:

I think we can all relate to that. Yeah.

Susan [00:31:21]:

Then So that but it it's the when the deposits are larger and it's you know, you've got maybe larger works going on and they're looking for a fairly chunky deposit, you know, 40, 50%, it's like, well, and if it's ordering materials, as I say, one option is to say, well, okay. What are the big materials you're ordering? I'll pay for it and get them delivered to me Because then you've got control over them and you own them. So the danger is if you pay say, bespoke windows are obviously really expensive. So if you order bespoke windows, you pay that trader for those windows, and he doesn't pay for the windows, then

Julie [00:31:55]:

you're just No money and no windows.

Susan [00:31:57]:

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Thanks.

Julie [00:31:59]:

Hello. The question I was going to ask you then is because so bear in mind, like, in this Scenario, I'm the normal person. I don't work in the building industry. And I've had the builder around, and they want, say, 50% deposit upfront. I know that can be a bit intimidating dealing with these people if you don't know how it works. So can you give us some ideas of what to say, please?

Susan [00:32:29]:

Well, 1st of all, the question first of all, it depends on how much the value of the works are. So, obviously, you know, bigger jobs, They shouldn't be asking for 50% up front. But if somebody came to say for example, my guy doing my doors came up to me and he said, right, I'm going to, Alright. Let me let me make them really expensive doors. Right. He's going to replace some doors and some windows for me, and he's quoted me, say, £10,000. Now a lot of the window companies will actually ask for 50% up front or 25% up front. Now that's a lot.

Susan [00:33:05]:

Now there's little choice in windows unless you go to a smaller fitter, which is what I've done, and then you've got more choice of and it's that negotiating ability that you have. So some bigger companies will just say point blank no. This is what we do, our standard terms. But it's normally the smaller traders, the smaller builders that you've got bit more flexibility with. So I'd say, well, look. Okay. Look. I appreciate you want 50% upfront, but, that's quite a lot.

Susan [00:33:31]:

What what's that 50% for? And if they come back and say when it's materials, well, okay. Well, how about if I buy the materials? And then that says you have it because it's like if you what I normally say it's cash flow. So it's cash flow. We've got to buy the materials, etcetera. That's why you want the money up front. If you can address their cash flow issues, and as I say, by maybe you buying the materials, that way, you get the benefit or protection of at least something happens, you've got those materials with you. So it's thinking about their cash flow and how you can address that. That's normally what they sort of say it's about.

Susan [00:34:06]:

So if you just think about a win for them. So what if I buy the materials, you're not taking cash out of your business now. So It it's just trying to think of a win situation.

Julie [00:34:17]:

Okay. No. That's really good. Thank you. Then one of the things I wanted ask you. And I think this is based on like a chat you and I had had at some point, and you mentioned house rules to me. Yes. And I swear to goodness, it would never have occurred to me to think about this.

Julie [00:34:35]:

So do you want to just explain for the listeners what you mean when you started talking to me about house rules?

Susan [00:34:40]:

Yeah. House rules is something that came up because, when I talk to people about problems that they've had on their building, particularly on building works and renovations and extensions. The biggest winches of the complaints that I see, it's not only about the building itself, the quality and the money, etcetera, But it's about the way that the builders and the traders operate. So for example, complaints about Them playing the radio too loud, using the toilet, you know, leaving dirty mugs around the house, Using work boots and walking all over the best carpets. And so what I call it sort of house rules and practical stuff. So Cool stuff. So if there's anything that's really going to annoy you about the builders, then talk to them, you know, first and say, look. Can we can we set down Some ground rules.

Susan [00:35:34]:

Yeah. You got to be careful how you do it because, obviously, if you give a 15 page document to them, a list of things they're not going to do, they're not going to turn up to start work. It's a question of practicality. So I'll give you an example. I had a new kitchen put in and the guy came around, give me the Quotation, not the estimate for the work and we were chatting about it. And I said to him, I work from home. I said, so I'm going to need a couple of things. One is if you play music, I've got no problem with that, but can you just sort of keep it so I can't hear it upstairs when my office is? I said, take a copy.

Susan [00:36:08]:

Everything is there you can have. I said, if you're going to need to do anything really noisy, can you let me know in advance in case I'm on a call? And if you need the electricity to go off, we agree in advance when? Because, obviously, I can't use my computer when the electricity's off. So that were all the rules that I gave him. I wasn't bothered about them using the toilet or anything like that, But that's we just had a conversation. It wasn't like a right, here's my rules, sign it. But just a conversation about how you're going to interact if you're staying in the house. And that's really helpful because he then was then happy because he could have his radio on. And all he had to do was just knock on the door and say, oh, we need to turn the power off in about half an hour.

Susan [00:36:48]:

Is that okay? Work well.

Julie [00:36:50]:

Just good communication. That's until

Susan [00:36:53]:

Yeah. But you need to have that conversation beforehand because, know, if you've got say you're working from home and you do a lot of phone calls and they're fit in a kitchen, they're doing something that's going to be noisy, You know, using saws, power tools, and that. They can't keep stopping every time you're on a call. So you need to that's you know, you need to make these things clear. Yeah. And so it's similar than, like, using the toilet. I mean, is there 1 toilet that you want them to use and one that you want to keep for yourself or, you know, whatever really winds you up. You know? That that that Everyone's different.

Susan [00:37:24]:

What your pet peeve is? But you need to you need to think about it and just say, look. Can we can we agree that you'll do x, y, and z?

Julie [00:37:30]:

That's It's really good advice. Emily, you look like you've got a question for Susan there.

Emily [00:37:34]:

Yeah. I was just going to say actually that I think that is excellent advice as well because, we did a Big extension project in our house a couple of years ago during well, sort of between the 2 COVID outbreaks almost. And, one thing that I'm really glad that we got straight early on was that they had tea breaks At certain times of the day. So we were told that they had that morning tea break at 10, and another tea break at 1, and they didn't have it, I think

Susan [00:38:04]:

I'm not sure if they

Emily [00:38:04]:

had a tea break in the afternoon. Anyway so when I was offering them initially a hot drink, they'd be like, oh, no. No. No. No. And I started to realize that, yeah, every time I asked them, they said no, unless it was at 10 o'clock and at 1 o'clock. But then my husband explained it to me. Yeah.

Emily [00:38:19]:

And, actually, it would have been easier. No. Not in the beginning. But it just it makes people at ease because everybody knows what the go you know, what the rules are. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that

Susan [00:38:30]:

well, that's it. And it's just a case of to say, you know, it can be a bit awkward if you're in the house. And the other thing is that if you need to go out, something happened. Do you need to go out the house? Are you going to are you going to be happy leaving them in the house on their own? If you're going to be away at a meeting for the day, What are you going to do? You know, who's going to let them in? Are you going to give them a key? Are you going to have someone let them in? Yeah. It's just the practical stuff. Just thinking through the things that, You know, you know, things like that that you just need to sort of work out in your own mind, what you're going to be comfortable with.

Julie [00:39:04]:

I think we've had some cracking tips there. Right. So Susan, as we draw towards the end of your amazing episode, What we like to do is because we're the nosy type, stroke curious. We like to find out a little bit more about our guests. And what I'm wondering I'm not wondering. I know the answer to this. Right? Is tell us a random fact about yourself. You've got a cool random fact.

Susan [00:39:29]:

Right. My random fact is that I am one of the few people in the world that has designed a camel bridge. And by a camel bridge, I mean, an underpass for camels so that they can cross the road safely.

Julie [00:39:45]:

Is this because you really love camels, Susan?

Susan [00:39:48]:

I haven't seen a particular camel lover. No. They're not my favourite animal. But, No. It was, I was working for a consultant, and they were putting a new road in in Qatar in the Middle East. And, unfortunately, the road went through the middle of a camel grazing ground. And the problem with that is that, cars and camels don't really mix very well. Neither the drivers or the camels come out of accidents particularly well.

Susan [00:40:17]:

So I was tasked with designing some way of enabling the camels to cross the road, not the chickens, the camels. And so, Obviously, camels don't like small spaces, so we had to build a huge underpass for the camels to cross the road with. And, the interesting thing about that was the client asked the question whether the camel urine would damage the concrete. So I had to do some research onto the effects of urine in concrete. And I found that in America, when they were building all the skyscrapers, this guy had done a research paper. Because the guys that were pouring the concrete obviously couldn't be bothered to go down to the toilets, so they were peeing in the concrete. And he did a great research paper on whether Pee in the concrete actually affects its strength and all the rest of it. So I was able to research that and tell the Sheikh that, yeah, it's okay.

Susan [00:41:07]:

Camel pea's alright. Your bridge won't fall down. So

Emily [00:41:11]:

I think you need to get yourself over to Sri Lanka as well though, Susan, because I noticed when I was there, there were fences just knocked down all over the place Because, apparently, elephants Alright. Have no respect for fences. You know, they want to walk the way they want to walk and, you know, low and behold, anything that's in their way. So Well, there you go. I saw that 1.

Susan [00:41:31]:

Not only could I I'd be a camel bridge designer. I could be an elephant bridge designer. Yeah. That's yeah. Well, enough to do that.

Julie [00:41:37]:

I think we found a whole new niche for

Susan [00:41:39]:

you there, Susan. Haven't we?

Julie [00:41:42]:

Been new. Alright, Susan. Listeners, if they want to come and Holly, you find out more about you. What's the best way for them to do that?

Susan [00:41:50]:

Probably the best way is to, drop me an email. It's probably the easiest way, which is susan@businessofbuilding.co.uk. Or I'm particularly on LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn. It's another good place. My website is just being updated. So hopefully, by the time this go out, you might have a nice shiny new one there, and that is business of building.co.uk.

Julie [00:42:16]:

Alright, Susan. And listeners, what we're going to do is going to put some resources for you in the show notes that Susan has kindly shared with us. So we have got 5 top legal tips for your Property renovation. She's got another brochure that sets our services for property owners and investors. And also she's got trauma Trades Without Trauma Coming to us soon. Well, it'll be released by now, so go and check that out. All the links will be in the show notes, and you can reach Susan on LinkedIn or via your email address. Hey, Susan, you have been an absolutely amazing guest.

Julie [00:42:48]:

Thank you so much.

Susan [00:42:49]:

Well, thank you for having me. It's been good fun and, yeah, watch out for the kennels.

Julie [00:42:55]:

We will do it. And, Emily, thanks for keeping me company.

Emily [00:42:58]:

My pleasure. Thanks, Julie.

Julie [00:42:59]:

Alright. And finally, listeners, thank you very much for listening. Until next time, please do take care of yourselves.