119. Showdown: Mortgage Vs Pension

In this episode  Julie, Michelle, and Emily engage in a spirited debate on the age-old question: Should you overpay your mortgage or put money into a pension? This showdown delves into the financial implications and personal preferences that go into making this crucial decision, leaving listeners with insightful perspectives to shape their own financial strategies.

- Decision-making considerations: Interest rates, investment returns, tax effects, and age
- Benefits of pension contributions: Tax relief, compounding growth, and access to funds
- Drawbacks of mortgage overpayment: Interest rates, lack of liquidity, and tax implications
- Split investment strategy: Allocating funds to both mortgage and pension for a balanced approach
- Lump sum decision: Factors influencing whether to invest in the mortgage or a pension

Resources:
Will overpaying my mortgage or pension make me richer? (ii.co.uk)
MSE overpayment calculator

YOUR HOST

Julie Flynn is an experienced independent financial adviser and financial coach. Justice and equality drive Julie. Which is why she’s spent years studying and researching how stress affects our financial decision making.

Julie is best known for her work with women who have lost their partner and coaching financial services business who want to implement fair and transparent charges.
Ebb & Flow Financial Coaching | Bree Wealth & Tax | Instagram

CO-HOSTS
Emily Pool is a Financial Planner and Will Writer. She is passionate about empowering people to invest their wealth (pensions and savings) sustainably and in line with their personal values.

Michelle Lambell  started her career in financial services as a Stockbroker in 1999 undertaking both advisory and discretionary investment management. Today she is a Chartered Financial Planner, specialising in retirement planning advice, pensions and investments and a Certified Financial Coach. 

Sara Walker is a financial planner and financial coach with 33 years’ experience in financial services. She wants all women to feel financially confident and uses her professional and life experiences to support and educate women over 40 so they in turn feel able to support and be role models for the younger women in their lives.

Jennifer O'Neil is a mortgage and protection specialist and director of Athena Mortgages. Having been in the industry since 2014 Jennifer decided to set up a company in 2020 that suited her core values as a broker – integrity, service, honesty and continuous improvement.
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Transcript

Welcome back to this week's episode of the Women and Money Cafe. Now if you joined us for the previous episode, which was 118, we were asking the question, Should I overpay my mortgage? We promised you that in the next episode, we would tackle the question of Which is better? Should I overpay my mortgage, or should I put money into my pension? So today, we are ask we're answering that question to the very best of our abilities, Anyway, with me today to tackle the subject, I've got Michelle.

Emily [00:01:15]:

Hi, Julie.

Julie [00:01:16]:

Hi, Michelle. And I've also got Emily.

Emily [00:01:19]:

Hi, ladies.

Julie [00:01:20]:

Hello. How are we all doing today?

Emily [00:01:23]:

Very good. Well, kind of very good. Thank you.

Julie [00:01:26]:

Hi. Are we all excited?

Emily [00:01:28]:

Yeah. I love pensions and mortgages.

Julie [00:01:34]:

And I think we all know how Michelle about pensions, so we don't need to revisit that one. She's still getting professional help. Don't worry about her. Okay. So, last week, we were talking to you about, you know, if you've got money, extra either extra monthly money or a lump of money, And you're like, do I leave that sitting in the bank or do I put it towards my mortgage? And hopefully, we talked you through several steps to help you figure out what is the best way for you to go. And some of you will have been sitting there thinking, why aren't they talking about pensions? I've got this money. Does it go to my mortgage, or does it go on my pension? And so that's what we're going to cover off today. Now I think there's a couple of things.

Julie [00:02:12]:

So we're going to talk you through the mechanics of it, the maths of it, the tax and the legislation and law and all that kind of stuff. Well, I'm going to throw a challenge out to you as well, and that is that how you think about these things is going to influence the decision that you make as well. Because it seems weird to say it. Right? But we all have feelings About our mortgage. We do. Not necessarily warm, fluffy feelings, but we have feelings about our mortgage equally. We have feelings about our pensions. And you're like, oh, she's lost the plot this time, hasn't she? But it's more if you think about it, Let's use me as an example.

Julie [00:02:55]:

Okay? My mortgage has got less than 9 years left to run. So that is more immediate for me than when I will get at my pension. So the fact that that's more gratifying because it's more short term could influence my thinking. I think the other thing as well is houses. Right? Everybody thinks they understand houses. And there it go. They understand the property market. I'm not sure if that's actually true or not.

Julie [00:03:24]:

But, you know, if you've gone and bought a house, you didn't need someone to tell you Which house to buy? You figured that out yourself. You knew how many bedrooms you wanted, whether you wanted an upstairs, whether you wanted bathrooms, what kind of garden you wanted. Didn't need a financial adviser for that. You've sitting there. You have not got a clue what kind of pension you want because they don't come with gardens, and they don't come with bathrooms. They're filled with all this complicated stuff that most people don't actually understand. And I think that can be a bit of a barrier sometimes. It's like, Houses, I understand them.

Julie [00:03:55]:

Pensions, not so much. I'll go with the thing I understand. Thanks very much. So I think these are just some of the things that will influence the approach and our thinking Money trying to figure out which is better, which is right for me. So to kick us off, right, Michelle, I want you to imagine that I'm a client, and I come to you like Michelle. Michelle, I know we've worked together for ages. Right? I've just had a pay rise at work. I've got an extra 500 pound a month that I don't I don't need in my budget.

Julie [00:04:26]:

And I'm wondering whether I should pay that money off the mortgage or whether I should put it into my pension. What are your thoughts on that?

Michelle [00:04:36]:

Well, we all know how I feel about pensions, to be fair. That could make me go, okay. I think you should do all pension. But actually, There's an argument for both. And the argument for both works on what is going on in the world at the time. And when I mean what is going on in the world, It's about what are interest rates on your mortgage, and what are potential

Julie [00:05:00]:

returns. Because as

Michelle [00:05:01]:

we know, we can't guarantee what comes out your pension. And that has to all be taken into account along with actually how you feel. Because as you say, we do all have feelings about Perhaps, and we have feelings about a pension. Not too very different. They have very emotive feelings that come with them. So Emily, it's about working out where we are in the world today and which is more beneficial for you at the time. So that would be my starting point. Do interest rates look like?

Julie [00:05:33]:

Right.

Michelle [00:05:33]:

What does returns look like? And then we start the conversation into a whole sort of rabbit hole of different things to then come out with the outcome.

Julie [00:05:42]:

Alright. Okay. So that's a good starting point. Thanks for that. So you're saying it's very much to do with where am I at the Women? Where are interest rates at the moment? What's the world up to, and what are investment returns doing? So these are kind of things that are going to come into play. So as we record this, we are at the start of 2024. Interest rates and inflation are a little bit higher than they had been in previous 10 years. Investment returns have been sluggish to say the least.

Julie [00:06:11]:

Okay? But it will not always be this way. So I guess then if we took more sort of a kind of long term view rather than what we're dealing with right at this moment in March 2024. Emily, could you talk me through what some of the benefits are of me taking this extra 500 pound and putting it into a pension rather than paying it off my mortgage.

Emily [00:06:35]:

Of course. The most obvious one actually, sometimes people overlook this, but the most obvious one is the tax effect. When you put money into a pension, if you're a basic rate tax you get basic rate tax relief on that pension contribution. And if you're a higher rate taxpayer, you get higher rate tax. You might have to do a little funny little thing in a self assessment tax return to get it back, but, ultimately, you do get the full tax relief on any personal contributions You're making to your pension plan. So, you know, it's money for nothing, really. And Poole are crazy not to take a kit. You do have to make sure that you're not going to need to access that pension in the short term if you're if you're, well, a lot younger than the age of 55, which is the current pension access age, which is moving up to 57 from October 2028.

Emily [00:07:35]:

But, yeah, it's an amazing thing. I said to somebody today, it's a bit like money laundering. I don't know why I think it's like that. But you stick money in and you get you get a lot of money a lot more money back. So it's great. And then when you come to retire, hopefully, it's compounded with growth over the many years that you've held it and invested it, and you get to take it out. You get to take out 25% tax free, and the other 75% is taxable at your marginal rate. So tax Women is an amazing reason to be putting money into pension.

Julie [00:08:16]:

Okay. Alright. So That sounds pretty good. So if I take my 500 pound a month, I'm going to put it into Emily's pension. I'm going to get in a 20% uplift straight away On time from the tax relief, from a higher rate taxpayer, I'm getting another 20% back as well. So this is all starting to sound quite attractive. I've nearly doubled my money there, haven't I? So that's kind of that's sweet. And what you're saying to me is it's going to grow.

Julie [00:08:43]:

It's going to compound. So it's going to get bigger. I'm liking this. I'm starting to feel warm and fluffy about my pension. And then what you're saying to me is that when I get to retirement age, I can take 25% of his tax free cash, and the rest of it can supplement my income Money retirement. That sounds that sounds appealing, Emily. Thank you. Michelle.

Julie [00:09:05]:

Why would I make what Jennifer if I went to come see you and I do the mortgage instead? Because I got to say Emily's made a compelling, compelling, Rational argument there for putting it in the pension.

Michelle [00:09:18]:

The biggest benefit for paying into the mortgage is you will repay your mortgage Emily, which for a lot of people is an incredibly warm and fluffy feeling. Because if you've got 10 years left on your pension and you can reduce that by 5 years by over Paying. You don't have to pay any you know, each month anymore after that. It's yours. The house is yours, and you've paid it all off, and you've saved probably tens of 1,000 of pounds in interest by doing that. So whereas you may not be getting the growth on that money, you are Achieving a saving overall over the long term.

Julie [00:09:53]:

Oh, see, that sounds good as well. Being mortgage free, that sounds mighty attractive too. I don't know which I feel more warm and fluffier about. They both feel good. So what you're saying is if I put the money towards my mortgage, I'm going to be mortgage free sooner, Which quite frankly, the thought of that just feels damn good. Yeah. And what you're saying is I will have saved myself money because I won't have had Pays much interest. Yes.

Julie [00:10:20]:

Okay. Now it's interesting. Anybody listening? Let's play the game. Alright. Hold out both your hands. In your left hand, alright, we've got being retired. And in your right hand, we've got been mortgage free. Which one's feeling like, oh, that's the one I want.

Julie [00:10:42]:

I want that one. Have you got it, Michelle? Is the one that's doing it more for you? I own my own house. Yeah. Versus I'm retired.

Michelle [00:10:53]:

See, from a personal point of view, there's one that's winning hugely from a let's put my Work Money in place and the other Money stealing a little bit of it back. So I probably end up with 5050.

Julie [00:11:11]:

Alright. What about you, Emily?

Emily [00:11:13]:

I've definitely got a voice in my head screaming, I want both. Give me both.

Michelle [00:11:19]:

Not that we're greedy.

Emily [00:11:21]:

Yeah. But which means there's a compromise perhaps in that you might not retire at 55, but you know I'm being optimistic here. You might retire at 55. You might retire at 60, but that's still a hell of a lot better than retiring at 65. So, yeah, you and you've got a house that you live in as well without a mortgage. So I think both.

Julie [00:11:43]:

Like, before you and you both sort of introduced compromise, what I'm curious about was, were you leaning one way rather than the other? Yeah. Which way are you leaning, Emily?

Emily [00:11:56]:

I think there's a point at which I would start to lean The other way, depending on where rates are mortgage rates are, but I think I definitely feel I want to pay into a mortgage more than I do completely reduce the value of the mortgage. And the part of the reason for that is this Funky little thing that pensions have in terms of this ability to take the 25% tax free cash Because sometimes I do talk to clients about perhaps you if they can afford to, using that element of their pension pot as the vehicle to repay what's left of their mortgage. So that's a way of Using 1 to advantage yourself

Julie [00:12:43]:

for the But before you introduce your financial adviser head, Emily's heart was saying clear the mortgage On my house.

Emily [00:12:51]:

No. I was saying in both the

Julie [00:12:53]:

Alright. You're on pension. You're in your heart, you're like, give me the pension. Give me the pension. Emily, what was your, Michelle, what was your heart saying?

Michelle [00:13:03]:

So mine does actually say give me the pension. Now the reason behind that is when I have a mortgage, I put it with a term in mind. I know it will be repaid at some point. There is a certain end point that it will come to and it will be repaid. I don't have any certainty that I will have enough money to live on in retirement.

Julie [00:13:23]:

Right.

Michelle [00:13:24]:

So for me, the uncertainty of the pension outweighs the certainty of knowing my mortgage will be paid off at some point. Because there will come a point in time where, 1, I won't be able to get another mortgage because age or income won't allow. But I know if I carry on the way I am, it will be repaid because it will have to be repaid. There's nothing to say that I have to save into my pension to get to a certain amount of income. So my the uncertainty rules for me.

Julie [00:13:52]:

Right. Because my heart is saying give me my house. Excuse me. You need the house.

Michelle [00:13:59]:

That's where we see the bias, isn't it? How we feel has a really big impact.

Emily [00:14:04]:

I think a lot of it comes from our parents as well, doesn't it, you know, going back to those childhood things? I think if we sat around the dinner table and our parents We're talking about paying off the mortgage, paying off the mortgage. And, you know, then we have it in our head. This is the really important thing to do. Yeah.

Julie [00:14:21]:

Right. So that I just thought it was interesting to see what was going on because I'm sure everybody listened if there will be you will be leaning one way or the other. I suspect by the time we get to the end of this episode, the answer is going to be both because we're very rarely either or in the cafe. I think then so we what you both really kindly did, as you talked me through, you gave me compelling reasons why I should do one of the other 2 things. So why what are the really big benefits of putting the money in a pension? What are the really big benefits putting in a mortgage? I guess what we didn't touch on is what are the potential drawbacks of each course action. So let's say I choose to go and put commit this money to my mortgage. What would be the drawbacks of that, Emily?

Emily [00:15:07]:

Well, it may be that you're then, stalling, on Paying into the pension. I mean, most people are paying something into the pension because, obviously, employers are needing to pay a certain amount in. But, You know, unless you've probably done the sums, you're probably not paying in enough. So if you're not paying in enough and you just focus on paying down the mortgage, Great. You might get to an age where you want to retire, and you've got a house that you can live in. Nobody can take that away from you. But if you're not Then able to have an income that allows you to have the lifestyle you want, you can't leave your bit.

Julie [00:15:46]:

You're saying I'm living on baked beans in Living in

Emily [00:15:48]:

baked beans in a nice house that you own and mortgage free. For me, holidays are important. Having a certain standard of living is important. And I think when it came to the point if I was retired and I wasn't having the right lifestyle, I think I would then look to perhaps downsize to right size the house so that I could have the lifestyle I wanted. But I think it just depends whether or not you're looking for that lifestyle and holidays and nice restaurants or whether or not you just want to sit at home in a very nice house.

Julie [00:16:19]:

Right. Are there any other drawbacks to me putting that money towards a mortgage? I do have 1 in mind.

Michelle [00:16:26]:

I have the Money that actually the money you're using to pay off your mortgage, you've been taxed on And you've paid National Insurance on, so it's been reduced, which is isn't the case with the pension, but you are subject tax a National Insurance on that before you get there. So, actually, pre-tax terms, it's costing you more.

Julie [00:16:48]:

Woah. Okay. That's not the one I was thinking of. That's a good one. Right. So I think Putting the money towards the mortgage, I think Money of the things that I think is I see as a potential drawback is I'm essentially syncing that cash, That cash that I can do stuff with, that I can go and exchange for goods and services. I'm putting it into bricks and mortar, which I can no longer trade with. So it's not liquid anymore.

Julie [00:17:16]:

It's not like later Money, I can think, oh, I fancy one of Emily's holidays. I'm just going to go and sell my bathroom. Yeah. And use that for the special holiday. It's not liquid anymore, is it? So I think that's one of the drawbacks of ploughing all your cash towards your mortgage if it's not leaving you with enough liquid assets elsewhere.

Emily [00:17:35]:

Yeah. So I talked about trading future lifestyle, The repaying mortgage, and you're talking about trading current lifestyle. Yeah. It's a it's a big one. You can't get it well, It's a bit annoying to have to then go and release equity from your house because you suddenly realise that you haven't got enough liquid resources.

Julie [00:17:55]:

Yeah. Yeah. So any other drawbacks to putting the money towards the mortgage?

Emily [00:18:01]:

I think it comes down to interest rates as well. Because if, you know, for example, last few years, interest rates have been virtually nothing, say mortgage rates high and you start to think, oh, okay. I'm going to start paying off my mortgage. So you work really hard and you pay off your mortgage, and then the interest rates really drop, and you think oh my goodness. I could have had that cheap debt, and I could have, you know, now been Basically, having my cake and eating it, I could've had the mortgage and been able to put it into 500 and capitalized it up because the rates are so low. But, you know, when you're paying off a mortgage where rates are high, you're giving up that future, Ability to get cheap debt, but you're not going to need it anymore. Alright. Sense?

Julie [00:18:47]:

It does. It just costs more to service the debt right now than it did a couple years ago. And who knows what it will cost in a few years?

Emily [00:18:54]:

So, Amber, crystal ball doing really that's.

Julie [00:18:57]:

No. We've Had a we've had the cafe crystal ball in the shop getting repaired for a while now, and we've not had it back. Soon as we get it back, we'll let you know. What else I was going to say? So that's the drawbacks of putting the more money towards the mortgage. What are the drawbacks to putting the money towards into the pension?

Michelle [00:19:16]:

So, again, it's access if you're younger than currently 55 or what it would be, 57 in 2028. Money can't access that money. So you have put it into your pension, and it's there to grow for your future. It is for your future income. But, again, the same with the mortgage, you can't get that money back because, actually, you're not allowed to access it below the minimum pension age. So that's a consideration. If you're thinking of it's a way of a savings and building your wealth and then be having access to it, that won't be the case unless you're over 55.

Julie [00:19:50]:

Okay. So

Emily [00:19:51]:

well under 55 and you're a little bit unsure about whether you're not going to need access, that's when the ISA is a nice sort of middle ground, instead. Anyway, focusing on pensions.

Julie [00:20:05]:

Are there any other drawbacks to committing this money towards pension?

Michelle [00:20:10]:

You can't guarantee the return. You know, we can say there is a potential for return, and that's what we do. That's part of our daily work. But in every client, we can't guarantee anything. Markets could change and things could happen. So whereas we say, okay. Actually, You know, we think you've got a better potential to earn more by putting it in your pension than you have by paying off your mortgage. There's nothing to say that we don't have an event such as COVID, you know, the Russia, Ukraine war, all those things which affected markets will affect the overall return.

Michelle [00:20:42]:

So if you're doing it on a more short term basis because you're coming up to retirement, you really have to factor that in. That is quite a big drawback. And, again, the crystal ball is never going to be able to answer that question.

Julie [00:20:53]:

I think the last 2 years probably a classic example of that, aren't they? Because Yeah. If we've gone in the last 2 years, you're like, I thought this thing was meant to make money. It hasn't really. And then at the start, interest rates were really low, and now they're like, woah. No. They're really high. You're like, this is a hideous experience. I wish I'd put it towards the mortgage, but that's with the benefit of hindsight, isn't it? So I suspect then that what we're thinking is maybe rather than an either or, an and scenario.

Julie [00:21:27]:

Mhmm.

Emily [00:21:28]:

Yeah. So can I just introduce Money other drawback of putting of repaying the mortgage versus the pension? And that is another tax thing, inheritance tax. Now if you're listening to this podcast after we've had a general election in 2024, Just be aware that this might not be the case because I think inheritance tax is going to have a overhaul at some point. But currently, as things stand, a pension That I'm talking about. A defined contribution pension plan sits outside of your estate for inheritance tax purposes. A property that you own in your name doesn't it will form part of your estate for inheritance tax purposes. So just be aware that if you're reaching your Nil rate bands. If you're above your nil rate bands, anything that's in your estate is going to be taxed at 40% under current legislation, but not your pension because it is not coming into that calculation.

Julie [00:22:27]:

Okay. Thank you. Quick question, ladies. If I had come to you so I came to you with an extra £100 a month budget asking what should I do with that. Is it safe to say that we're all kind of leaning towards putting 250 pound towards the Pension, £250 towards the mortgage or some variation thereof. Yeah? Yeah. Because we are having our cake, and we are eating it On the way in the Money Cafe. Because it's just hedging against we don't know what's going to happen next, so let's have a foot in both camps.

Julie [00:22:58]:

But what I was curious about is Would you have said anything differently to me if I came to you and said, look. I've got this I've got a lump of money. I've got £10,000. Should I pay let's assume I've got my emergency fund, my plan spending, and all that shizzle, and any other debt taken care of. Got £10,000. I didn't know whether I should just knock £10,000 off the mortgage or whether I should put that into a pension assuming that I've got annual allowance that will allow me 10,000 print into a pension. Would your suggestions differ because it's a lump sum?

Michelle [00:23:31]:

Not necessarily. No. Not necessarily because, again, it will depend on your interest rates and your potential growth rates. But actually, with a lump sum, it's the same as, you know, the monthly payment. You're half and half. You're benefiting both. Right. And there's evidence to say that actually Jennifer both, you get a broadly equal effect even if rates change than concentrating on 1 than the other.

Julie [00:24:00]:

Alright. That's brilliant. Okay. So what we were saying is we kind of we took my Money 500 pound and we split it in half, And we sent it both ways. And if you're listening to this, you can't actually go terribly wrong if that's what you do. But if you were a higher rate taxpayer, Right. You might be as well speaking to one of us because we may want to cut off the £500 slightly differently from a tax point of view where we can maximize the tax efficiency for you. If you don't want to talk to one of us, that's absolutely fine.

Julie [00:24:28]:

Well, you can't go terribly wrong doing a little bit of everything. Yeah. Is that fair to say, Michelle?

Michelle [00:24:34]:

I definitely you know, I think if we look at the tax advance to the pension, if you put £250 in with basic rate tax Julie, that becomes £312.50, you know, straightaway into the pension. Your 250 goes on to your mortgage. And, actually, there's some I was doing some research beforehand, and I've got some examples here of the difference.

Julie [00:24:56]:

I was going to ask you to share them with us. So

Michelle [00:25:00]:

this is this is over a 20 year period and someone having additional money of £200 a month and what they do with it. So a 20 year repayment mortgage. Now if you were to overpay the mortgage first with the £200 a month. But then once your mortgage is repaid early, which in this case is 4 years early, you switch your whole mortgage repayment plus the overpayment you've been making into the pension, you would benefit the most when we have a high interest rate for mortgage environment.

Emily [00:25:38]:

Right.

Michelle [00:25:39]:

Because you've got rid of that early effectively. If it's a low interest rate environment, Money don't benefit as much as you do in any of the other scenarios.

Julie [00:25:52]:

Right. So in a higher interest rate environment, Clear the debt first.

Michelle [00:25:58]:

It's saying clear the debt first.

Julie [00:25:59]:

In a low interest rate environment, ignore the debt. It'll be fine.

Michelle [00:26:04]:

Yeah. You know? I think it it's broadly equal. If you would and this is where it shows the effect of the tax relief because if you do the same thing but assume there's no tax Julie, there's about £20,000 difference in your overall wealth in that time. So it's quite a big difference. So the tax relief is the booster. Right. That is the booster that gives you the most benefit. And if you did half and half, so a £100, so this was the 200 pounds of the payment, £100 into each, The amounts, regardless of the interest rate and regardless of the growth rate, are about equal across the board.

Julie [00:26:45]:

Right. So we can't really go wrong doing 5050.

Michelle [00:26:49]:

No. Because I think it gives you the best of both worlds, and you've got the benefit of both. But those figures were actually really quite surprising to me, and it's the tax relief of the pensions that really just supercharges it, and that's on basic rate tax. So if you are a high rate taxpayer, you're getting even more benefit from doing that.

Julie [00:27:09]:

Right. Okay. Is this something we can add a link to in the show

Michelle [00:27:13]:

I will try and find it. It's on an interactive investor site. So it's just a blog post effectively, believe

Julie [00:27:20]:

that I

Michelle [00:27:20]:

will send you the link.

Julie [00:27:21]:

Cool. We'll add a we'll add a note to that in the show notes. You can go and check out yourself. Alright. So that was really cool. So what we've done is we've taken a Whistle stop 2 or 3 there of, like, whether I put this imaginary amount of money into my pension or whether I put it off the mortgage. And I think this is just really topical because Everybody's sitting there right now thinking about how best to manage the money coming into those and how to deploy that capital efficiently. That's if you're an accountant.

Julie [00:27:45]:

The rest of us are just figuring out what to do with our money. And, hopefully, this has given you some things to think about. So but just be aware of the fact that some of this is going to give you a warm, fuzzy feeling, the thought of it, and some of it isn't. But just arm yourself with all the facts before you make a choice. And if it's too hard to figure out which one to do, do both. Have a bit of everything. You can't really go wrong doing a bit of everything. So, Michelle, that thank you very much for those case studies.

Julie [00:28:19]:

Emily, is there anything you want to share with us before we wrap up?

Emily [00:28:21]:

Yeah. And I'm sure you're going to give me for this, but, Probably another podcast, but what about people who want to make property their pension? Would any listeners like to hear that 1? If so, drop us a note on the Facebook page, And let's have a chat sometime.

Julie [00:28:45]:

I think that's

Emily [00:28:46]:

Or has anyone done it already and can bring us the benefit of their experience?

Julie [00:28:50]:

Yeah. If anybody's got is our pension vehicle. We'd love to hear from you. Or if it's something that you want to learn more about, whether you think it's a good idea or whether it all worked for you, to do is drop us a message, and we will make sure that we cover this off in a future episode. No daggers for that. I don't know. I think it's a cracking question.

Emily [00:29:06]:

I'm in a good book. Wow.

Julie [00:29:09]:

Alright. Any last thoughts, ladies? No.

Emily [00:29:14]:

No. No. I don't think so if you haven't got one.

Julie [00:29:17]:

K. Alright. Look. Thank you very much to both of you for helping me out with this. And to hear the listeners, thank you very much for listening to And until next time, please do take care of yourselves.