125. 9 to Thrive (navigating job offers)

Get ready to level up your career game in this episode of Women & Money Cafe, as we dive into the nitty-gritty of job offers and benefits. From company culture to pension plans, no stone is left unturned! Here's what you can expect:

- Michelle's advice on gauging company culture and work-life balance
- Emily's insights on aligning personal and company values and considering sustainable initiatives
- Julie's discussion on company policies, unique benefits, and work-life balance
- Tips on evaluating job offers' impact on personal life and envisioning career aspirations
- The significance of team dynamics and professional development opportunities
- Important considerations like promised benefits in writing, long-term career goals, and thorough analysis of offer details.
- The lowdown on financial aspects, including pensions, bonuses, holidays, private medical insurance, and more
- The crucial role of mental health support and additional benefits like counseling programs
- Real-life examples and experiences, from pension pitfalls to negotiating for better benefits
- Key resources mentioned throughout the episode for further research and guidance

Websites mentioned:
- B Corporation (https://bcorporation.net/)
- Glassdoor (https://www.glassdoor.com/)

YOUR HOST
Julie Flynn is an experienced independent financial adviser and financial coach. Justice and equality drive Julie. Which is why she’s spent years studying and researching how stress affects our financial decision making.

Julie is best known for her work with women who have lost their partner and coaching financial services business who want to implement fair and transparent charges.
Ebb & Flow Financial Coaching | Bree Wealth & Tax | Instagram

CO-HOSTS
Emily Pool is a Financial Planner and Will Writer. She is passionate about empowering people to invest their wealth (pensions and savings) sustainably and in line with their personal values.

Michelle Lambell  started her career in financial services as a Stockbroker in 1999 undertaking both advisory and discretionary investment management. Today she is a Chartered Financial Planner, specialising in retirement planning advice, pensions and investments and a Certified Financial Coach.

Jennifer O'Neil is a mortgage and protection specialist and director of Athena Mortgages. Having been in the industry since 2014 Jennifer decided to set up a company in 2020 that suited her core values as a broker – integrity, service, honesty and continuous improvement.
LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook

Transcript

Emily [00:01:31]:

You ready? Working 9 to 5. What a way to make a living. Barely getting by. It's Oh, thank you, Emily, for that that lively start to this episode of the Women and Money Cafe.

Julie [00:01:50]:

Now, if you're wondering, what the hell was that all about? Okay, this episode is 9 to Thrive. What we're doing today is we're walking you through all the things you might want to consider if you've got a new job offer or if you're job hunting. So you've got a job already and then somebody offers you another one and you're like, is that one better than this one? Obviously not the actual job because we don't know what you do for a living. But we're going to be talking you through all the different kinds of benefits and salary things you may want to be thinking about. Now as you've already spotted, I am joined by Emily for this episode. Hello. Thank you for that very musical intro, Emily.

Emily [00:02:29]:

And I've got regret that.

Julie [00:02:32]:

No. It was fantastic. It was fantastic. And I've got Michelle with me as well.

Michelle [00:02:37]:

Hi, Julie. And I'm definitely not singing.

Julie [00:02:39]:

No. And I won't sing either because I like you listeners, and I will not inflict that pain on you. Okay. Alright. So, yeah, we were just we were just chatting amongst ourselves. And it's that when you've got a situation and you've got a new job offer in front of you, I think it's fair to say, you know, I'm I've been guilty of this as well, is the thing that always catches your eye is the salary. And that's the thing. It's the bright, shiny thing.

Julie [00:03:09]:

And we're, we're going to look at all the other things that you might want to take into consideration when you're looking to move job. And it's funny because just before we were we started recording, I was telling Michelle and Emily about a job I used to have. Used to work for First Direct and it was one of my favourite jobs ever that I had because the benefits package at First Direct was totally awesome. You have, like, this menu that you could choose from things, and I was in my twenties back then. So I had zero responsibilities. So I picked things like I'll have a case of wine delivered once a quarter. What else did I get? I used to get something like £300 worth of Debenhams vouchers once a quarter. I mean, you could do sensible things like buy critical illness and life insurance and what have you, but I took I took the wine and the Debenhams vouchers.

Julie [00:03:54]:

Thank you very much. So, yeah, just to kick us off then, Emily, if someone's sitting there and they're trying to compare Money job to another, what are the kind of things that you would encourage them to look at in more detail?

Emily [00:04:14]:

Well, I think all of these benefits are important, even the wine, especially the wine. But I do think probably a very good place to start is the pension because that makes a massive different difference. I was working with a client not so long ago, and I was just doing some pension consolidation for Women. And I, I had gathered up all his pensions. He had really good pensions from previous jobs. I could see that they were making the employees had made really, really decent, contributions to them. And then when I looked at his current one, I was thinking, no. There's a mistake here.

Emily [00:04:50]:

That can't be right. You can't go from, you know, having that amazing pension over here and then changing jobs and going onto this very sort of statutory, very low, ridiculous type pension. And sure enough, it was right. He just clearly, I don't think he just hadn't even looked at it. He was oblivious as to the fact that his pension benefits had dropped so much from Money job to the next. So I do think that that is very important. And obviously the one you're really interested in is how much is the non-contributory part. So what's the employer going to contribute on your behalf without you even, you know, being aware of it? It goes straight from their account into your pension account.

Emily [00:05:35]:

So, yeah, I mean, obviously, there's minimums involved now. I think 5% is in no. 3%. Someone help me out here. What's auto enrollment minimums? Come on, guys.

Michelle [00:05:47]:

8% overall. So 3% employer, 5% employee.

Emily [00:05:52]:

That's right. Yes. Well done, Michelle. I knew there was an 8, a 5, and a 3 somewhere. So, yeah, so 3% minimum, employer is, what we're looking at. If you're on 3%, frankly, go and find another job. There's too much competition out there, amongst employers. They know that people do care about pensions and a lot of companies are paying a lot more than those minimums.

Emily [00:06:17]:

So definitely shop around for that. And then if there's an opportunity for you to be paying in some and then matching it on top of what they would ordinarily pay, that is just super good news. Really, really good. I mean, I know people who are who've got, like, 30% going into their pension of which they're paying 15, and the company's paying 15. Obviously, you need to be in a position to afford that. But wow. Amazing. So there's definitely, scope there to really improve your position with a pension.

Julie [00:06:47]:

Alright. That's great tips. And it's made me remember something else from when I worked at First Direct. So somewhere like that, it's really structured with the salary bands. Like, there's no there's sometimes there's not a lot of lot of room for manoeuvre. You're all coming in on the same salary. And there was a group of us that all started at the same time. One of the people that joined, I'm not going to mention her name, she's still a good friend, she negotiated a higher pension contribution.

Julie [00:07:14]:

So we were all on the same salary, but she very smartly went, well, I want more salary. They said no, because we're the bank and that's how we behave. And she goes, well then, I want a bigger pension contribution. And they were like, okay then. That comes out at a different cost base. That's fine. We can negotiate on that. So I would I I'm always going to haggle anyway.

Julie [00:07:35]:

I'm going to haggle on the salary. I'd also be haggling on the pension contribution as well, just because I'm a bit like that, which is probably why nobody's ever going to Emily me. Okay. So that's what your first protocol then, Emily, is the pension contribution. So we we've got the bright shiny thing with salary, and now we're drilling deeper. And we're like, okay. What have you put into my pension? What else should people be looking out for, do you think, Michelle?

Michelle [00:08:01]:

So one of them will be you'll often see bonuses, advertised alongside, you know, your pension contributions and your salary. And it's important to clarify what the terms of those are. Are they guaranteed? Are they not guaranteed? What do you need to do to achieve a bonus if there is one there? And I think it's really important that you're aware of that because you don't want to go into something with a big bonus and then be told you can't have it because of x, y, and zed. So the terms of that. And then also sort of switching with to the pension side as well. If you get a bonus, can you put that into your pension? Because that is the most tax efficient way of, you know, not having a big tax liability in 1 month because you've got your bonus and losing a big, you know, chunk of it. So the ability to do that is really powerful as well. So the bonus is just being really sure what the rules are and how that can be achieved.

Michelle [00:08:55]:

And then you can factor in, is that achievable for you? Is that something you want to do going forward?

Julie [00:09:02]:

Alright. Thanks for that. So I think the things that immediately come to mind are I'm going to loosely call them financial well-being, which is basically money. What money have you got for me? But then there's the other kind of well-being as well. So if we concentrate on just that kind of financial aspect, we've just touched on pensions and bonuses Because if you let's say you're on a salary of 50 and somebody else has offered you a salary of 80, it's drilling down to the benefits packages to try and put a number on what the benefits are worth so you can see if you are actually getting paid more. So a bit like your example, Emily, where Women day I'd moved jobs, but the pension contributions had dropped down quite a lot. So that's almost like that's effectively a pay cut.

Emily [00:09:47]:

Mhmm. Definitely a pay cut.

Julie [00:09:48]:

Right. Shall I rattle through the things that I would be looking for from an employer? Any potential employers listening that are tempted to hire me, you can reach me at on Instagram, Julie Flynn Money Women. I am available. No. I'm not. So things that I'm looking at if I was going for a job is the obvious one's going to be like holidays. Oh. Death in service benefits.

Julie [00:10:14]:

Yep. Because I am a grown up now, and I don't just take my benefits based on wine and debentures. Sick pay as well, things like that. So I'm going to be looking for private medical insurance.

Emily [00:10:26]:

Yeah. Right.

Julie [00:10:27]:

And it's looking at, you know, how does that compare to what I've got at the moment? Anything else you can think of ladies?

Michelle [00:10:36]:

I think you've got the option.

Julie [00:10:39]:

so I was

Michelle [00:10:39]:

going to say the option of financial critical illness, whether you can have that through your employer and life cover because sometimes they'll give you the option of being able to build that in as one of your benefits, for you and your Emily. So that may save some money elsewhere.

Julie [00:10:55]:

Emily, you go for it.

Emily [00:10:57]:

I was just going to say counselling benefits. So, you know, mental health helplines, that kind of thing.

Julie [00:11:04]:

Obviously, it has to be employee assistance programs.

Emily [00:11:06]:

Exactly. It has to be entirely confidential, but, you know, some I know people where that has really, really got them out of a really horrible position, not having had anyone else to talk to about certain stuff and just to be able to make a phone call and speak to someone pretty quickly, actually. Yeah. Definitely worth having.

Julie [00:11:27]:

One of the other things I've got on my list is commute. Alright. So we're back in the real world again where, like, employers expect us to go into places of work to do the work. So if I'm used to being able to walk to work or, you know, I drive there and there's no cost for parking, is my new job, is that going to cost me more or less to get there? Mhmm. Because that can end up being a lot of money, can't it? It? Yeah.

Michelle [00:11:58]:

It's a big factor.

Emily [00:12:00]:

Massive. And also car packages. Yeah. A lot of people will give you a car benefit allowance. You might not want to use it, but if you're not going to use it, it's as good as cash. So it's just paid to you a salary. So think about whether or not you do want to use that, whether you've already got your own car and whether or not you're just going to take the cash. But very, very useful.

Julie [00:12:25]:

Thinking back to when I had a job as well, they gave you a mobile phone. So what you want to be doing is making a list of all these things. So likes of the death in service, any private medical insurance, car schemes, and starting to value those. How much are those worth? And the potential of the bonus scheme? And then you're going to add this onto the salary to get the total value of the benefits package, not just the salary.

Michelle [00:12:54]:

I think in the same vein as that as well, you've also got if you're expected to do professional exams, if you're expected to study, or there is an ability to, will your employer pay for your exams? If they don't, that could potentially be a rather big outlay for you over a number of years. And if they do, what is the expected time for you to stay before you're having to pay it back? So I know with, you know, some of financial services employers, they'll pay for your exams, your professional exams, but if you leave within 2 years, then you have to pay that back to them. So it's just it saves you money but you are then generally caught into a contract later because they'll want to make sure they sort of get their money's worth from you.

Emily [00:13:39]:

And, also, if you fail the exam, how many goes do you have a go at attempting it, reattempting it? So, yeah, often they'll expect you just to pay yourself the 2nd or third time. So that's definitely worth thinking about. But of course, you're not going to fail, are you? No one's going to fail.

Julie [00:13:57]:

We listen to our podcasts. Right? We're all winners, the Women and money can't we?

Emily [00:14:02]:

We're winners.

Julie [00:14:04]:

I guess the other thing that I would look at as well is share safe schemes and how you know, are they available and how they operate because that can be a perk as well.

Emily [00:14:15]:

I was really grateful for that share save scheme, Julie, when I was sitting there in South Africa, in my amazing hotel rooms on my honeymoon, watching the RBS share price fall to 10p. Really, really pleased with that one. But, anyway, that's water under the bridge.

Julie [00:14:31]:

This was your honeymoon?

Emily [00:14:33]:

On my honeymoon.

Julie [00:14:35]:

Alright. So we all know what year Emily got married now.

Emily [00:14:37]:

Yeah. I think half the people there were from Lehman Brothers and were getting rather drunk. It was a very expensive Lambell.

Julie [00:14:48]:

I

Emily [00:14:48]:

was trying

Julie [00:14:49]:

to think of the other things that I've seen in the past is, like, different kind of travel schemes where sometimes they'll give you a loan to pay for seats and tickets for trains and what have you, and bike schemes, if memory serves, from legal in general. Yeah. So they're thinking of like the, the hard financial facts that we would be looking at. I think there's another side to things as well, and that's more sort of the whole well-being thing. Like, if I was going to get a job right now, probably one of the things that would be really, really near the top of my list, probably just under salary, would actually be culture, the culture of the company that I'm going to work for. Because I'm picky now. I'm not just going to work for anyone and whoever's got the highest salary. And it's like, how just curious, Michelle, how you would go about trying to get a feel for the culture of a Money.

Michelle [00:15:45]:

I think, you know, when you go in for an interview, you can see what's, you know, what the office looks like, you know, how people are being around the office, how people talk to you. But then often, you're often taken off to a side and you go to a room and you have your interview, so you don't see the actual office. So I think if you can get to speak to somebody who's worked in the company or who works in the company and just ask them, what's it like? Is it a nice place to work? Are there things that you would be mindful of, you know, with someone new coming in? Because the truth often comes from the people who are actually in the office every day. You don't want to arrive and not know what that's like and have a bit of a culture shock on in the first, you know, week or so and think I don't want to be here anymore Women you've potentially just made a big move. So I think if you can try and talk to Poole, and I don't see anything wrong with, you know, in the interview saying, is there somebody I could have a chat with? You know? Is it possible to have a walk around the office and see what it's like? What are the facilities like? What are the people like? And I think then you get a bit of a feel for it, and that that would be really important to me to say is I think as we get older, we do have a you actually want to be in somewhere you feel comfortable. And, actually, what are their values like compared to your values? I think that's really important.

Emily [00:17:03]:

The last time I was in a office and well, I was self a self employed consultant, but it's a bit like being employed Emily. But one of the things that made me realize that I really did need to find somewhere else and get out was, you know, it might be a small thing to a lot of people, but we had no recycling bin. A company that has that attitude where you just chuck everything and not worry about plastics being recycled or paper, you know, just it just grated with me. And I just thought, well, that isn't a sustainable, workplace that, you know, there was just lots of little things like that really made me feel that it, it didn't sit well with my values. I mean, I don't know if the listeners have heard of B Corporations. It's a big movement of companies who are really trying to, have purpose and not just be about making profits. And so they do really care about their carbon footprint and the impact that they have on the world. So, you know, if that is important to you, maybe have a look to see whether or not the company that you're interviewing with is, aware of b Corporation.

Emily [00:18:12]:

Are they striving to be b Corporation? Or is there some other sort of, initiative that they're signed up to? So, yeah, just work out what your values are on, whether or not they are being, displayed at the new place.

Julie [00:18:25]:

I think that's a really good example there, Emily. Thank you for that. The other thing I think that that shows you gives you an indication of how a company values their employees and what they actually value is like their policies and procedures. You're like, okay. That sounds really boring, Julie. Where do you go with that? Right? Being a woman of a certain age, I want to know if they have a menopause policy. Right? If you'd asked me 10 years ago, I'd have been looking at the maternity leave policy, the maternity leave policy. You pick whichever policy is most relevant for you and ask them if they've got one and just what is it and who how did it the other thing I'd be asking is how did it come about? So there's a big employer that I know who has policies for everything because they actually really do give a shit about their employees.

Julie [00:19:19]:

But all of this is being driven by, working groups within the company who are constantly looking to how can they make employees feel more valued and deliver more of what they want, which just strikes me as a totally revolutionary way to approach your employees, but I like it. So I'd also be asking if you have got these policies, how did they come about? Has it been driven by something internally, or is it a tick box exercise? You know? Because there's plenty of them out there.

Michelle [00:19:48]:

Yeah. I think it's it is important because if a draw you know, a Flynn or something has happened that's brought about that policy, then you know that it is well meaning. It is something that they are trying to get right, and for some reason, it wasn't right before, and they're trying to improve on it, and having her past experience of different maternity arrangements with various different employers, I think, you know, if you're friends and everything else, it can really make or break whether you will stay with that employer long term.

Julie [00:20:20]:

Yeah. Another benefit that I heard about, which I really like, is actually this is starting to sound like an advert to go and work for a bank. Okay. It really isn't an advert to go and work for banks. I think it's well documented how I feel about banks. But I know someone that works with Barclays in Glasgow, and there's a GP service. Anybody that's tried to get a GP appointment, that your employer has a GP on-site, that you can get an appointment to see and get treated. I'm like, woah.

Julie [00:20:49]:

That was mind blowing. So I think things like that are great initiatives. What else have I seen? Obviously, gyms are quite popular ones in gym memberships, but the GP just blew my mind. I like that.

Michelle [00:21:02]:

I think one of the through a couple of clients of mine who work for it's British Airways. So they get they can change their what they have every year. So they can either stay with what they have already, or if they wish to do something different, they can sort of chop and change it around. And they love that, you know, the clients that I have, you know, because 1 year something's important to them but there may be a change in their life, something different happens, and they can go and select from a Money, they effectively have a menu and an a budget to spend within that menu, and they can pick what they would like using their budget until their budget's used up. I love that. Full choice.

Julie [00:21:42]:

You can go and build your own menu, Michelle. Alright?

Michelle [00:21:45]:

I know that's going to be my plan for the future.

Julie [00:21:50]:

I think one of the other things that I'd be considering as well is like flexibility and flexible working. Because as much as we're talking about, are we financially benefiting from this job move, it's like, what's the cost to my work life balance as well, unless you're Brian, in which case he has a life work balance. But it's okay somebody giving you a shed load more Money, but it means you're running yourself ragged time wise, commuting wise. You haven't got as much time to spend at home or with your family or with your friends. Is that a price that you're prepared to pay? Is, I guess, the question I'd be asking myself.

Michelle [00:22:28]:

I hear you. It's a huge question. I've actually been in that position where I was offered something which the salary was extremely attractive, you know, and the benefits. However, I would have had to go to the office at least at least 3 days a week, probably 4 and an hour and a half drive each way and fairly long days. And, actually, when you sit and look at it and you go, actually, I can work from home pretty much most of the time now. I could be flexible around my Emily, and I like the fact that I can be, you know, flexible with days off and what I'd like to do. So that regardless of all the other hard financial facts that came with the job, that was the bit that actually said to me, no. That's not right for me.

Julie [00:23:12]:

Yeah. I think that's really, really important is that being able to weigh it off, isn't it? Is Yeah. There's all kinds of different costs. There's a financial cost, but there's a personal cost, doesn't there?

Michelle [00:23:26]:

It looks so you know, when you look at the money, you could you know, my husband was like, oh, you need to consider it. You need to think about it. And I said, okay. Let's break this down. And actually then when I said to him, well, I probably wouldn't be here at least 4 days a week. If it's busy, probably 5 days of the week. I if I'm working late, I've still got an hour and a half drive home. And actually even he said, well, that isn't worth it, is it? Because you're actually losing that that time with other things you want to do.

Michelle [00:23:54]:

So that makes a decision. But as you say, yeah, it's huge, and we often don't look at that until

Emily [00:24:07]:

they've done like a vision board on Pinterest or something, and then they've like stuck different, elements that they want their life to look like. So if it's to go and do an am dram, thing as it was for me at one point. No, I wasn't singing. It's alright. Just acting. But you know, if you have all of these ideas and you can put it in a format where it sort of speaks to you and said, this is what I want my life to look like, and then you get the offer and you can just think, oh, how does that fit in? Does that fit? Does that allow me to, to have all of those other things that I wanted?

Julie [00:24:45]:

I think that's a really good point because I know that one of the things that would be important to me is who is the team. Being part of a team's really important to me. So it'd be who am I working for and who am I working with? And they're things that you can't really know until you get into an organization. Mhmm. But, you know, if I'm in a current job and I really love my team, it's going to be have to be quite a stellar offer to make me walk away from my team Yeah. To into the into the unknown. Lots of zeroes involved because I know that that's something that's really important to me. I guess the other thing I had on my list, and I think you kind of touched on this, Michelle, and that was professional development.

Julie [00:25:32]:

If that's something that's important to you, it's like, how does the new company develop at staff? What are the opportunities? You mentioned exams. It's like, you know I don't know if maybe it's just the age I am now as well. It's like I've got to a stage where I've learned just about everything there is to know apart from British ISAs about financial services. It's like, I think I'm about to make a thing up. I want sideways learning. So not just learning that moves me forward in where I am, but so that I can get new skills and different skills in different areas. So it's not being too blanket about what your career path is and or how development might look for you, what opportunities are there to just try new things.

Michelle [00:26:20]:

I think that's really important because it's about developing you as a person and the things that interest you and you want to do. You know? And even from our, you know, from our perspective, we have exams we sit, but there's also sort of softer skills than actually working with other professions or doing other things. And some of that we have to learn. So if somebody's going to an Emily is going to help encourage you to do those things and open up other worlds to you that's great because if it's for the benefit of them they'll be really proactive about that.

Emily [00:26:51]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean also I would say, line just direct line management support is so important when you're starting a new job in particular. I remember back in the days, in the early days when I was in the bank, I'd got a good promotion to a really interesting job, loved it. But the lady who was supposed to be looking after as I supposed to be, cause she, you know, she wasn't even in the same location as me. So it was like she was squeezing in a Money to one call with me while she was on her commute home. When her signal kept cutting out all the time, I couldn't hear her Poole. You know? And this this was basically the gist of the support that she was giving me on these truncated, telephone calls losing signal where I couldn't actually get anything.

Emily [00:27:42]:

And then it would be like, well, you know, I haven't learned anything from that. I haven't felt encouraged. I'm just going to get, very sort of worried about the fact that I haven't heard and understood what the instructions are. So it just yeah. Where are they delivering this line management support from? Because in this world where some of us are at home sometimes, and some of us are in the office, is it in the format that's going to work for you?

Julie [00:28:09]:

I think that's a really, really good point, Emily. Thank you. So as we start to wrap this up, I think what's, what's the one thing that you would have listeners take away from the episode, Michelle?

Michelle [00:28:22]:

I think the breadth of benefits that can come with a, you know, with an employed role because there are so many. And the other thing is it's all, you know, it's very nice if you're told about all these things but also please make sure you have it in writing that these things are available to you because I've had experience where friends have been promised Money, many things and actually when they've started the job they haven't happened. So it's fantastic if you get offered these things then it's all the things you want but if they're really important to you make sure you have that in writing from that employer so that you know what change you're making and that it is going to happen. It's not just something that's been said to invite you into the role and potentially then it's not what you're looking for. So there's so many things out there, make sure you know what's important to you but just make sure it's written down somewhere.

Julie [00:29:17]:

Excellent advice. Excellent advice. Emily, what's the one thing you would want listeners to take away from this episode?

Emily [00:29:24]:

I think, to have that longer term view on things, because let's face it, we don't have careers now where we join an organization and we stay there all of our lives. I mean, I think you need to know what it is you're looking to get out of that particular role. You know, it might be that you're just needing to increase your salary significantly, or it might be that you're already looking for something with purpose that fits with your values. It could be that you just see it as that stepping stone to the next thing. In which case you just need to be clear with yourself. I mean, I'm not saying you have to go into the interview and saying, I'm just taking this job because I want to get this other job over here, and I know it looked really good in my CV. But, yeah, have the long term view and put it into perspective.

Julie [00:30:14]:

Alright. Thank you for that. I think mine is don't get dazzled by the salary. Drill down as deep as you can on this and make sure that it is actually because it just it may just look like more money. Check that it actually is more money by getting to the detail. Alright. Well, thank you very much for that, ladies. Emily, again, thank you for the wonderful intro.

Julie [00:30:38]:

Pleasure. The Women in Money Cafe the musical will be available shortly. Well, until next time, please do take care of yourselves.